Toy Hauler Pre-Project

Cerveja · 02-25-2014, 09:34 PM

New member, first post, lots of questions.

So I am in heavy research mode and for sale mode making way in the garage (or at least in the driveway) to park a school bus. I haven't bought anything yet and as I said am in "heavy design & research mode". Since I was a kid (sounds weird on so many levels) I have always wanted to do a school bus conversion. Parents had a motorhome and we took it everywhere and it got the wheels turning early in life. Now later in life I think I found the end that would justify the means.

I am looking for a Front Engine bus, either a flat nose or a dog nose in the 33 to 40 footer range. I intend to cut the back off so I can park a jeep on the back and convert the front into a camper. Nothing super extravagant, small kitchen and shower/toilet/bathroom area and sleep maybe 2-4 adults. Currently we camp when we go and it would be nice to have someplace warm to get out of the elements and clean up without freezing your tookus off in a small tent. From what I have learned thus far, I need to have at least a toilet and sleeping bed to re-class it as a motorhome here in Michigan. I have a basic floor plan and I think I can accomplish all that in under 40 feet. I like the idea of a flat nose, but as it is going to see a fair amount of highway miles, a dog nose may have a tiny aerodynamic edge and run a little quieter with the engine farther forward. Additionally I think I need to push the rear axle rearward to better balance the weight of the Jeep and to reduce the rear overhang. I think I would rather go with a longer wheelbase which will likely increase my turning radius, but improve drivability. Part of pushing the axle out is converting it to four wheel drive. A lot of the destinations are on dirt roads or have less than paved parking lots. I can't imagine how many jeeps it takes to pull a stuck school bus and am not anxious to find out, so having a front drive axle is probably a necessity more than a want. To help with storage inside, I will likely raise the roof, it seems like 2 feet is the norm, however not sure how much I will need to lift the vehicle to accomodate a diff up front. Will likely be adding underbody storage for clean and dirty water storage as well as equipment and generic stuff. So questions fast and furious:

1. Most of the front axles seem to be solid bent I-Beam Model A Hot Rod style axles. Is this driven by a lack of clearance to the oil pan? Is there room for a straight solid axle and differential or am I looking at lifting the frame a ton to make it fit?

2. Has anyone converted their bus into a 4X4 and if so what Transfer Case did you use for the conversion? Not looking to take it mudding or jumping cars like Big Foot, so tire and rim choice will likely stay the same, could even down-size if it makes sense.

3. What rear axle is generally under these buses and how easy is it to find new Ring & Pinion kits to re gear? Has anyone swapped them out for 1-Tons out of a truck or other vehicle which I could match a front and rear axle and bolt pattern? If so, which vehicles make good donors, I am going to guess an F-350 Dually would be a good start, just not sure it would have the strength I need. I am a Dana person myself, just not sure a D-60 would be heavy duty enough.

4. I like the idea of the 5.9 cummins with a turbo just cause parts I think would be easy to locate, but I am flexible on the Engine/Transmission to find something reliable with decent power that can get out of it's own way with the potential to pull a trailer behind with a second vehicle. It sounds like there aren't many fans of the D545 transmission and the T466 and D643 would be better. I prefer an Automatic, but could live with a stick-shift if it would be better.

5. As part of the cmaper conversion, I like the idea of in floor heat. I was thinking of a divertor valve that I could swap between using the Floor Circuit and the radiator for engine cooling and being able to use either or both based on the season and how much cooling wasreally required. As part of the Raised Roof, I imagine an overhead Heater/AC Unit so when we are parked (shore poer or generator) we still have the comforts of home.

I feel somewhat at home amongst some of the crazy conversions everyone has done. I am still reading and admiring some of the previous builds and answering a lot of questions and research, but any help narrowing the search engine down to more relevant threads would be awesome. Thanks again in advance for all the cheers and jeers.

nat_ster · 02-26-2014, 04:55 AM

Welcome.

I share many of the same tastes.

Budget?

Go read my Haul All build thread. Many of your answers are in the pictures, and text.

I hope you have at least $20 000 saved up. Big 4x4 = big $$$$.

Pirate 4x4 is where you need to ask the 4x4 questions, but questions would get you torn apart over there. In a day or so I will answer the rest of your questions. That will give you a chance to browse the build threads here on skoolie.net for info.

Nat

Cerveja · 02-26-2014, 07:51 AM

Been there. Done that. I just went through your thread Monday as a matter of fact. Sorry about your divorce, but it sounds like your in a better place now. Your pics were extremely helpful, especially the early on ones giving insight into how they are constructed. Been browsing pirate, will have to do more digging there, much to my surprise I didn't find a lot of builds there with my first couple searches, but will look again

Budget? That's funny, as if these things ever come in on budget. Been watching prices and looks like I can find a sub 200,000 mile vehicle in the appropriate length for under $5,000 give or take. Truck axles can vary greatly, but junkyards usually yield a lot. Interior appointments will vary, but I am extremely handy, so labor will be free and I have gullible friends that work for beer and pizza. Even if we hit $20k, I think it would still be cheaper than a hoity toity Prevost....

JakeC · 02-26-2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerveja

1. Most of the front axles seem to be solid bent I-Beam Model A Hot Rod style axles. Is this driven by a lack of clearance to the oil pan? Is there room for a straight solid axle and differential or am I looking at lifting the frame a ton to make it fit?

2. Has anyone converted their bus into a 4X4 and if so what Transfer Case did you use for the conversion? Not looking to take it mudding or jumping cars like Big Foot, so tire and rim choice will likely stay the same, could even down-size if it makes sense.

3. What rear axle is generally under these buses and how easy is it to find new Ring & Pinion kits to re gear? Has anyone swapped them out for 1-Tons out of a truck or other vehicle which I could match a front and rear axle and bolt pattern? If so, which vehicles make good donors, I am going to guess an F-350 Dually would be a good start, just not sure it would have the strength I need. I am a Dana person myself, just not sure a D-60 would be heavy duty enough.

4. I like the idea of the 5.9 cummins with a turbo just cause parts I think would be easy to locate, but I am flexible on the Engine/Transmission to find something reliable with decent power that can get out of it's own way with the potential to pull a trailer behind with a second vehicle. It sounds like there aren't many fans of the D545 transmission and the T466 and D643 would be better. I prefer an Automatic, but could live with a stick-shift if it would be better.

5. As part of the cmaper conversion, I like the idea of in floor heat. I was thinking of a divertor valve that I could swap between using the Floor Circuit and the radiator for engine cooling and being able to use either or both based on the season and how much cooling wasreally required. As part of the Raised Roof, I imagine an overhead Heater/AC Unit so when we are parked (shore poer or generator) we still have the comforts of home.

I feel somewhat at home amongst some of the crazy conversions everyone has done. I am still reading and admiring some of the previous builds and answering a lot of questions and research, but any help narrowing the search engine down to more relevant threads would be awesome. Thanks again in advance for all the cheers and jeers.

Ummm...you're talking about a full size bus here, right? We are way beyond 1 ton axles, my friend. My bus has a 19k axle in the rear and a 10k I beam in front. These are commercial frames and commercial axles. Yes, you could convert one, but if you are looking at 1 tons, you have some research ahead of you ;) Bottom line, my advice is that if you need a 4 wheel drive bus, buy a 4 wheel drive bus. Look in Colorado, Montana, and Idaho. If you are hell bent on converting one, start looking for 4 wheel drive buses and researching what components they use. I would say the dropped I-beam fronts are for engine clearance.<---incorrect

crazycal · 02-26-2014, 12:19 PM

I don't think straight or drop axle make a difference as far as engine clearance. Both are the same under the engine. I think the drop is more for getting the bus closer to the ground. It's for the "children". Jake is right about use of 1 ton trucks for parts. A 40 foot bus is the same as a medium duty truck. My front axle is rated at 13,200#.

Sounds like a fun project. Good luck.

JakeC · 02-26-2014, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazycal

I don't think straight or drop axle make a difference as far as engine clearance. Both are the same under the engine. I think the drop is more for getting the bus closer to the ground. It's for the "children". Jake is right about use of 1 ton trucks for parts. A 40 foot bus is the same as a medium duty truck. My front axle is rated at 13,200#.

Sounds like a fun project. Good luck.

That's a good point, my springs do attach after the drop, so clearance to the oil pan would be the same either way. Durrrr.....

nat_ster · 02-26-2014, 01:03 PM

Pics of oil pan clearances for both dog nose and flat nose are in my build thread.

I have to get back out to work, so I will leave this here to get the wheels turning in the right direction. 3 ton 4x4's also came from the factory using the rockwell f106 front axle. They were used for power line trucks, ect.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... axles.html
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... axles.html
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... -tech.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonmt

Late 70's F600 with F106's will look like this:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... -tech.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve gerstner

The 106 rockwell fronts came in two GVW, 7,500 lbs. and 9,000 lbs. The 7,500 used 1.75 x 19 spline inner axles, the 9,000 used 1.75 x 34 spline inner axles. The military used 1.625 x 16 spline. The most common 106 ratio's 5.80, 5.83, 6.20, 6.80, 7.20 the 6.20 gear is in big demand by the sledpullers. I have four of the 7,500 lbs. uints at this time, the stub axle on this is the same spline as the 14 bolt axle. The DT. lockers are available for this uint. steve differential eng. inc.

Nat

JakeC · 02-26-2014, 01:35 PM

There you go, that's good info for a front axle

T-case would also most likely be a Rockwell or similar. Definitely not going to throw a divorced 205 in there and expect it to be happy

Cerveja · 02-26-2014, 05:54 PM

Thanks all for the advice. Doing some quick searches and seeing what's available. I too was concerned that a 1-Ton or a sxity would be way too small so it's good to get a sanity check. Didn't see a lot of diversity in the Divorced T-Case family and again the 205 seems small. It's more a summer vehicle and the T-Case is more "just in case" than daily driver, so it's use will be fairly limited. Never even thought of shopping out a 4X4 bus, didn't think such a beast existed. Did some searching out west this afternoon and found a few, wasn't looking to drive cross country to grab one, but not opposed either if it makes sense.

Again thanks for all the advice, looking forward to expanding my education.....

JakeC · 02-26-2014, 06:03 PM

I love fabricating and have personally done axle swaps, etc... With something as big as a bus, though, I would try my best to just buy what I needed in the first place. I am guessing you will be ahead both time and money. At any rate, enjoy the journey!

Cerveja · 02-26-2014, 07:05 PM

Same here Jake C. I enjoy the fabrication aspect almost as much as the final project. Something to be said for stepping back and pointing "I did that". We did an axle swap on my Jeep last year; upgraded axles, tires, and linked suspension front and rear amd it was a ton of fun, and a fair amount of work. Been looking at the RockWell F-106's they seem heavy enough for the job, but the steering pivot for the knuckles seem so far inboard, the scrub radius and ackermann angle seem like they would be applys and oranges to the solid 2WD front axle. What type of axle is typically found under the back, it is probably a fairly open question as it likely varies by bus length and manufacturer.

nat_ster · 02-27-2014, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerveja

New member, first post, lots of questions.

So I am in heavy research mode and for sale mode making way in the garage (or at least in the driveway) to park a school bus. I haven't bought anything yet and as I said am in "heavy design & research mode". Since I was a kid (sounds weird on so many levels) I have always wanted to do a school bus conversion. Parents had a motorhome and we took it everywhere and it got the wheels turning early in life. Now later in life I think I found the end that would justify the means.

I am looking for a Front Engine bus, either a flat nose or a dog nose in the 33 to 40 footer range. I intend to cut the back off so I can park a jeep on the back and convert the front into a camper. Nothing super extravagant, small kitchen and shower/toilet/bathroom area and sleep maybe 2-4 adults. Currently we camp when we go and it would be nice to have someplace warm to get out of the elements and clean up without freezing your tookus off in a small tent. From what I have learned thus far, I need to have at least a toilet and sleeping bed to re-class it as a motorhome here in Michigan. I have a basic floor plan and I think I can accomplish all that in under 40 feet. I like the idea of a flat nose, but as it is going to see a fair amount of highway miles, a dog nose may have a tiny aerodynamic edge and run a little quieter with the engine farther forward. Additionally I think I need to push the rear axle rearward to better balance the weight of the Jeep and to reduce the rear overhang. I think I would rather go with a longer wheelbase which will likely increase my turning radius, but improve drivability. Part of pushing the axle out is converting it to four wheel drive. A lot of the destinations are on dirt roads or have less than paved parking lots. I can't imagine how many jeeps it takes to pull a stuck school bus and am not anxious to find out, so having a front drive axle is probably a necessity more than a want. To help with storage inside, I will likely raise the roof, it seems like 2 feet is the norm, however not sure how much I will need to lift the vehicle to accomodate a diff up front. Will likely be adding underbody storage for clean and dirty water storage as well as equipment and generic stuff. So questions fast and furious:

1. Most of the front axles seem to be solid bent I-Beam Model A Hot Rod style axles. Is this driven by a lack of clearance to the oil pan? Is there room for a straight solid axle and differential or am I looking at lifting the frame a ton to make it fit?

In my world there are two kinds of 4x4.
One that stays mostly on the road with close to stock size tires. 4x4 is only used in occasional situations.

Then there is the 4x4 that gets pushed to the limit. Sunk into mud, tires as tall and as big of grip as possible.

Which one are we building?

Low cost solutions first.

The rockwell F106 was used in ford trucks of the same class as our buses. F600, 700, 800 all used them as a available option.

The 106 rockwell fronts came in two GVW, 7,500 lbs. and 9,000 lbs. The 7,500 used 1.75 x 19 spline inner axles, the 9,000 used 1.75 x 34 spline inner axles. The military used 1.625 x 16 spline. The most common 106 ratio's 5.80, 5.83, 6.20, 6.80, 7.20 the 6.20 gear is in big demand by the sledpullers. I have four of the 7,500 lbs. units at this time, the stub axle on this is the same spline as the 14 bolt axle. The DT. lockers are available for this unit. Steve Differential Eng. inc.

The Rockwell FDS 75 is also of the same class.

Conventional military top loaders can be used. However you will need to spend money. If your going to run your stock size tires, you will need new gear sets that cost $1200 each axle. If you run 52" tires you can run the stock gear sets. Downside is you would need to change the rear also to match. Plus side, add one more and make it 6x6.

A fair number of different options and ways of skinning this cat.

2. Has anyone converted their bus into a 4X4 and if so what Transfer Case did you use for the conversion? Not looking to take it mudding or jumping cars like Big Foot, so tire and rim choice will likely stay the same, could even down-size if it makes sense.

Again depending on what you intend to do with the bus will determine the transfer case choice.

With any tire size and moderate power (300 diesel HP) a divorced NP205 will be fine. They are all cast iron and gear driven. Due to the abuse the rock crawlers put them through, these things will have no issue in stock form. If you want more strength, or more reduction there are kits to make them 300% stronger.

There are many options from the rock crawling world that will do fine. Some have 10 to 1 reduction.

I would not use any of the Rockwell transfer cases due to the weight and the problematic air shifting.

3. What rear axle is generally under these buses and how easy is it to find new Ring & Pinion kits to re gear? Has anyone swapped them out for 1-Tons out of a truck or other vehicle which I could match a front and rear axle and bolt pattern? If so, which vehicles make good donors, I am going to guess an F-350 Dually would be a good start, just not sure it would have the strength I need. I am a Dana person myself, just not sure a D-60 would be heavy duty enough.

Like already mentioned, it will depend on year and bus manufacture.

4. I like the idea of the 5.9 cummins with a turbo just cause parts I think would be easy to locate, but I am flexible on the Engine/Transmission to find something reliable with decent power that can get out of it's own way with the potential to pull a trailer behind with a second vehicle. It sounds like there aren't many fans of the D545 transmission and the T466 and D643 would be better. I prefer an Automatic, but could live with a stick-shift if it would be better.

If you intend to take it anywhere soft, stay with the 5.9 Cummins due to it being the lightest of the engines.

5. As part of the cmaper conversion, I like the idea of in floor heat. I was thinking of a divertor valve that I could swap between using the Floor Circuit and the radiator for engine cooling and being able to use either or both based on the season and how much cooling wasreally required. As part of the Raised Roof, I imagine an overhead Heater/AC Unit so when we are parked (shore poer or generator) we still have the comforts of home.

Just run 1/2 pex in aluminum heat plates on top of your floor insulation, under your finish floor covering. 10 or more 1/2 lines would be needed running in parallel to avoid restriction and transmit enough heat.

I feel somewhat at home amongst some of the crazy conversions everyone has done. I am still reading and admiring some of the previous builds and answering a lot of questions and research, but any help narrowing the search engine down to more relevant threads would be awesome. Thanks again in advance for all the cheers and jeers.

nat_ster · 02-27-2014, 08:10 PM

Now for the down side.
Depending on what front diff, and what style of bus, it will need lift. I will let the pics do the talking.

This is a 92 flat nose TC2000 win a 5.9 Cummins and a at545
You can see the front axle is directly behind the transmission, under the parking break on the drive shaft. The parking break could be removed for more clearance.

Now the pics of a 92 Ford B700 5.9 Cummins 5 speed fuller.
As you can see this bus has the front axle directly under the rear of the oil pan, making it a front sump. In comparison a Dodge truck with the same engine would have had a rear sump oil pan, and the front differential would have been under the front of the oil pan.

Nat

nat_ster · 02-27-2014, 08:16 PM

More random pics showing various things.
The B700 left side of the engine.

In this pic you can see where the oil pan ends, and the trans starts.

Nat

nat_ster · 02-27-2014, 08:59 PM

My finding from the pics and measurements are as follows.

The dog nose would need half the lift to clear the new front differential. Around 12" would be needed.

The flat nose would need 24" of lift with the face load rockwells. 16" with top loaders due to the offset to one side.

IMO the conventional top load rockwell would be best, if you have the funds.
Every part in them is made aftermarket in various strengths.
The top loader style makes the drive shaft stay tucked up under the frame rails, out of harms way. It would also be out of the way of underside storage boxes.
The reversible center chunk makes it possible to change the offsets from side to side, ect.
The contentious pinion makes it possible to add another rear axle if needed. Tandem singles ride much better than single axle duels. Tandem singles also don't get stuck nearly as bad.
You could build a 6x6 with rear steer.

Nat

Cerveja · 03-01-2014, 10:54 AM

You are the Man Nat! Always a wealthof information.

Okay so this is the first type of 4X4. It's a very mild 4X4 used to haul a really built 4X4. The most 4X4 usage it is likely to see is going to be some dirt roads and some muddy parking lots while unloading or camping. Might also throw it in Four wheel in the winter time for the extra traction. But really it's a safety net, I don't want get stuck and have to wait for a really expensive tow to pull my bus/camper/toyhauler out of some crap a stock mall crawler would not even blink at.

Tire size will be stock or damn near. I am not going 44 inch mudders or fifty inch tractor tires. Again this is a highway cruiser to get to and from the campground on the weekend, not some ridiculous redneck lifted mud truck. So if anything it will be similar to stock bus tires, maybe a winter bus tire (if they make such a thing) which I envision deeper lugs for a little better back road/muddy/snow performanace.

I feared having to lift it much more than a couple of inches. The idea of going 12 or 24 inches will stop the project in it's tracks. I would leave it two wheel before going that tall. I figured the drop axle must be close to something and your pics confirmed that. Ii looks like the flat nose has a little better clearance, i.e. the axle would be farther brearward of the Transmission. So the parking brake is actually mounted to the outout shaft on the trans, not at the wheel like a conventional car, hmm, interesting.

Hmm, 10 circuits, I hadn't did the math yet, I was thinking three or four circuit, but I suppose that is more likely. Small lines, fair amount of bends, pretty high restriction, that many circuits is probably likely. How is the PEX line and automotive antifreeze? No compatibility issue or problems with th e antifreeze eating through or drying up the lines is there?

nat_ster · 03-01-2014, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerveja

You are the Man Nat! Always a wealthof information.

Okay so this is the first type of 4X4. It's a very mild 4X4 used to haul a really built 4X4. The most 4X4 usage it is likely to see is going to be some dirt roads and some muddy parking lots while unloading or camping. Might also throw it in Four wheel in the winter time for the extra traction. But really it's a safety net, I don't want get stuck and have to wait for a really expensive tow to pull my bus/camper/toyhauler out of some crap a stock mall crawler would not even blink at.

Tire size will be stock or damn near. I am not going 44 inch mudders or fifty inch tractor tires. Again this is a highway cruiser to get to and from the campground on the weekend, not some ridiculous redneck lifted mud truck. So if anything it will be similar to stock bus tires, maybe a winter bus tire (if they make such a thing) which I envision deeper lugs for a little better back road/muddy/snow performanace.

I feared having to lift it much more than a couple of inches. The idea of going 12 or 24 inches will stop the project in it's tracks. I would leave it two wheel before going that tall. I figured the drop axle must be close to something and your pics confirmed that. Ii looks like the flat nose has a little better clearance, i.e. the axle would be farther brearward of the Transmission. So the parking brake is actually mounted to the outout shaft on the trans, not at the wheel like a conventional car, hmm, interesting.

The pics were a little deceiving. The flat nose engine is mounted around 6" lower in the chassis than the dog nose. The center line of the axle on the flat nose is right through the drive shaft. The drop axles use 2 stages of drop, one at the spindle, the other in the center beam. The face load rockwells need around 6" above the center line for the chunk. Top loaders need around 11".

The dog nose would need half as much lift due to the engine sitting higher in the chassis. The engine and trans could also be raised a foot in the chassis to avoid raising the bus.

Hmm, 10 circuits, I hadn't did the math yet, I was thinking three or four circuit, but I suppose that is more likely. Small lines, fair amount of bends, pretty high restriction, that many circuits is probably likely. How is the PEX line and automotive antifreeze? No compatibility issue or problems with th e antifreeze eating through or drying up the lines is there?

No issues. I have a few systems in place using pex with automotive antifreeze.

Nat

Diddly · 03-01-2014, 10:48 PM

Would a winch possibly be a easier/more cost effective just in case plan?

Cerveja · 03-06-2014, 07:01 AM

A winch could be an option, of course a winch is only as strong as whatever it's hooked to. If the bus weighs in at 20,000 then I imagine I am going to need 30,000 or 40,000 of dead weight to tie off to in order to 'un-stick' it. But that is a thought. Nat's suggestion of dual axles has merit as well, as that may help distribute the load a bit more as well as disperse the load over twice as many Leaf springs so they don't need to be quite as stiff.

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