Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-29-2014, 12:42 PM   #1
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
Posts: 194
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000 Rear engine
Engine: Cummins 8.3; MD3060
Rated Cap: 84
Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternator

Let's discuss the the best, most efficient, cheapest way to charge batteries using engine (gas, diesel, propane). Solar, wind water mills camp power etc are all great options but let's see what we can get from engines.


Here are some options:

1. Engine---Gnerator(110v/220v)---Battery charger---Battery

2. Engine---Inverter(110v/220v)---Battery charger---Battery

3. Engine---Alternator(12v/24v)---Battery

#1 and #2 ave well discovered and discussed all over, but how about charging batteries using alternator?

Here is the math 12V system @ 100 Amp will only need 12 x 100=1200 Watt. So I personally think that run you huge V8 or huge diesel and use 2 HP out of it is not the best economical way to charge your batteries. The small engine can change this picture.

I was reading about some small diesel engines and found that small single cylinder Yanmar diesel L70 uses only 270 g/kW-hr which is 2 times better than Honda EU inverters.

This engine is rated for Net Continuous 5.8hp [4.3kW]/3600rpm. We only need half of this power to get over 100 Amp charge. In this case we can slow down engine to get better service life, better fuel economy and less noise.

Here I can see 3 areas we need to discuss:

1. Engine Gas or Diesel or Propane.... size, model price etc

2. Alternator 12V, 24V, output, model, price etc

3. Noise reduction, sound dampening. Any engine must be as quiet as possible. Engine enclosure construction, materials, sound dampening materials, etc
__________________
Here is my conversion thread:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/98-bluebird-tc2000-conversion-2-feet-roof-raise-3-slideouts-9728.html
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2014, 03:31 PM   #2
Bus Crazy
 
somewhereinusa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Andrews,Indiana
Posts: 1,636
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: AARE
Engine: 3116 Cat 250hp
Rated Cap: Her, me and Molly
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

I haven't gotten it built yet, but have all the pieces.
With the bad luck I've had with Onan generators I have a couple of perfectly good Kubota diesels laying around
with relatively low hours. I have a friend in the automotive alternator rebuilding business that built me a 320A 12v
alternator, it uses the same mount as a semi, (also same mount as my bus) just a bit longer out the back. I already
have an inverter and house battery bank. That will be enough amperage to run everything I have. I was originally going to
mount the generator in the engine compartment right in front of the house battery bank. My plans have changed a bit I decided
not to use the factory air due to the fact you have to run the engine. The area where the factory condenser was is big enough for
the generator and is just on the other side of the engine. I use 00 cable for all of my house battery cables and 5 feet is well
within the specs for cable length. Exhaust will run up through the engine compartment using a venturi pipe out through the roof.
I've also thought about adding a second smaller alternator 120A or so to the system to charge the start batteries, but that's probably
too much redundancy. I will use the start batteries to start the generator. I already have a way to connect the two battery systems
together in an emergency.
At the present time I have a 1000w inverter. On the plus side putting this type of system is when one part goes bad you don't have
to replace the whole darn thing. I'm sure someone is going to jump in here and tell me how inefficient the set up is, or that it won't work. I'm not all that concerned about it. The last thing you want to tell me is that it won't work.
about it. I have the parts
somewhereinusa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2014, 04:40 PM   #3
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
Posts: 194
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000 Rear engine
Engine: Cummins 8.3; MD3060
Rated Cap: 84
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

Quote:
Originally Posted by somewhereinusa
...... I'm sure someone is going to jump in here and tell me how inefficient the set up is, or that it won't work. I'm not all that concerned about it. The last thing you want to tell me is that it won't work.
about it. I have the parts
When you look at convenient system engine/ generator/ charger/battery. There are 4 steps and each one has loses. Alternator system has only 3 steps engine/alternator/battery.

If we compare apples to apples we will see that in both cases engines are the same, generator and alternator are almost the same devices. Alternator is actually 3 phase generator.

This system can be very universal when it comes to components. It can be expensive if you buy all new top top or it can cost you next to nothing because we all have stuff laying around.

My goal is to build efficient, easy to build, off shelf parts etc system. Everyone can choose what engine and alternator to choose.

Also #3 in original post: "Noise reduction, sound dampening. Any engine must be as quiet as possible. Engine enclosure construction, materials, sound dampening materials, etc" can be very helpful because you can use it to make cheap genset and have happy neighbors...
__________________
Here is my conversion thread:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/98-bluebird-tc2000-conversion-2-feet-roof-raise-3-slideouts-9728.html
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2014, 04:46 PM   #4
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
Posts: 194
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000 Rear engine
Engine: Cummins 8.3; MD3060
Rated Cap: 84
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

I can see one of the biggest challenges is noise. If somebody have some experience please share. I found some good info here some links:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fusea ... m#20415669

http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/S ... ators.aspx

http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/StandbyGenera ... ePaper.pdf



http://home.comcast.net/~prestondrake/S ... lencer.htm

http://www.acoustiblok.com/PDF/resident ... system.pdf
__________________
Here is my conversion thread:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/98-bluebird-tc2000-conversion-2-feet-roof-raise-3-slideouts-9728.html
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2014, 04:59 PM   #5
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
Posts: 194
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000 Rear engine
Engine: Cummins 8.3; MD3060
Rated Cap: 84
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

I have some experience with Arduino board and want to use it to control battery charge and engine side: RPM, temperature, oil alarm, start, stop etc.
I know alternator charge depends on exciter coil voltage/amperage. We can control charging voltage/ amperage using Arduino. This will give us very accurate charging profile especially if we decide to use Lithium batteries. Also we can have custom charging levels like quick charge or just slow/eco...which can be used when noise is an issue.

Off topic: I built torque converter lock for my Ram truck using Arduino. It cost me under $10 and works exactly the way I want.
__________________
Here is my conversion thread:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/98-bluebird-tc2000-conversion-2-feet-roof-raise-3-slideouts-9728.html
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 02:13 PM   #6
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
Posts: 194
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000 Rear engine
Engine: Cummins 8.3; MD3060
Rated Cap: 84
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

I found very interesting info about permanent magnet generators PMG or PMA. They mast be much mo efficient compare to regular car alternator. Some of them are converted car alternators like Delco Modified alternator and some are specifically designed to be PMG from ground up. You can find both on eBay.

I do like this ones:
http://store.mwands.com/permanent-magne ... s-pma/pmg/

They do cost a bit more but considering zero maintenance down the road I think this can be a good deal. Also they sell chargers and other things to make generator/solar/battery/grid connections easier.
I sent them email with few questions let's see what they tell us

As an engine option I am thinking about this eBay deal:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yanmar-L70AE-L7 ... 338f2544ff

This looks like a good deal.

One open question is how to make it as silent as possible. Please share your info and experience. Together we will find the best way to overcome most of the problems.
__________________
Here is my conversion thread:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/98-bluebird-tc2000-conversion-2-feet-roof-raise-3-slideouts-9728.html
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 10:44 AM   #7
Bus Crazy
 
somewhereinusa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Andrews,Indiana
Posts: 1,636
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: AARE
Engine: 3116 Cat 250hp
Rated Cap: Her, me and Molly
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

Just a few thoughts from some quick look ups.

Those brushless alternators are pretty low amp, the most expensive one from that link looks to be about 125 A at 12V, that's too low, at least for my installation where I will at times be using the setup as a power source, not to just charge batteries. And, they are expensive. The alternators that are used in modern over the road trucks last for thousands of miles with no maintenance. My 320A alternator with brushes cost about the same but produces 3840 watts at 12V. At the rate I will be using mine that translates to years. I probably won't live that long besides, I can change a lot of brushes for that kind of money.

It looks like your 125A is going to take about 2HP witch is well within the range of that little diesel, that seems to be about 5 HP.
Quote:
They have a 24V starter, tapered output shaft, preheaters, air filter. They are complete based on external inspection, rotate 360 degrees, and have compression. Although these are used engines, they appear to be low hour and in decent condition We don't know internal condition or if they run
Anything air cooled is going to much noisier than water cooled. When you build an enclosure the air cooled will need much more air circulation to keep it cool thus, letting more "noise" out. Air cooled WILL be a much easier installation.
somewhereinusa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 04:28 AM   #8
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
Posts: 194
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000 Rear engine
Engine: Cummins 8.3; MD3060
Rated Cap: 84
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

Quote:
Originally Posted by somewhereinusa
Just a few thoughts from some quick look ups.

Those brushless alternators are pretty low amp, the most expensive one from that link looks to be about 125 A at 12V, that's too low, at least for my installation where I will at times be using the setup as a power source, not to just charge batteries. And, they are expensive. The alternators that are used in modern over the road trucks last for thousands of miles with no maintenance. My 320A alternator with brushes cost about the same but produces 3840 watts at 12V. At the rate I will be using mine that translates to years. I probably won't live that long besides, I can change a lot of brushes for that kind of money.

It looks like your 125A is going to take about 2HP witch is well within the range of that little diesel, that seems to be about 5 HP.
Quote:
They have a 24V starter, tapered output shaft, preheaters, air filter. They are complete based on external inspection, rotate 360 degrees, and have compression. Although these are used engines, they appear to be low hour and in decent condition We don't know internal condition or if they run
Anything air cooled is going to much noisier than water cooled. When you build an enclosure the air cooled will need much more air circulation to keep it cool thus, letting more "noise" out. Air cooled WILL be a much easier installation.
The problem with car alternators is not maintenance. They do last 100K+ miles in car application and change brushes is not a big deal. The problem is they are very low efficient. They are in 50-60% range. I will try to get more details about PMG and share it. Also Freedom II Hydro PMG dual rotor produces 2800 watt which is not bad at all it is more like 120A @ 24V.

The noise is an issue This is why I want to run it @ 1800-2000 RPM max. I might try to find 10HP Yanmar diesel and keep RPM even lower. There is also an option to add AC compressor and get a very efficient AC.
__________________
Here is my conversion thread:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/98-bluebird-tc2000-conversion-2-feet-roof-raise-3-slideouts-9728.html
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 05:34 AM   #9
Site Team
 
bansil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: MNT CITY TN
Posts: 5,044
Re: Best way to charge batteries with small engine/alternato

Years ago we had a lawn mower engine with a pully on shaft, that had a 12v alt mounted to it with a belt...
We used it to keep drag car batteries charged between rounds , we couldn't afford a gennie in high school
__________________
Our build La Tortuga
Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.
George S. Patton
bansil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 05:16 PM   #10
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maple Ridge BC Canada
Posts: 194
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC2000 Rear engine
Engine: Cummins 8.3; MD3060
Rated Cap: 84
Does somebody have experience with PNG PMA

Does somebody have experience with Permanent magnet generators/alternators (PMA PMG)? They suppose to be more efficient and require no maintenance. It all sounds great but would be nice to hear and discuss REAL EXPERIENCE. It doesn't have to be exactly engine/generator/alternator. If you have any PMG PMA experience wind turbine or hydro please share..... We need more info and input.

I tried contacting Missouri Wind and Solar company but it looks like they have no info about their own product... This looks very strange. They claim 2800 watt power but after getting rpm/ power output I can only see 1100 watt @ 780 rpm. This is just a false claim unless I get better explanation how they got 2800 watt.... It looks like a bunch of ignorant clowns are trying to make a power revolution......
__________________
Here is my conversion thread:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/98-bluebird-tc2000-conversion-2-feet-roof-raise-3-slideouts-9728.html
Vlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do I Charge my batteries? Redbear Electrical, Charging and Solar 0 11-14-2010 10:44 AM
Small AC off of chassis batteries? gbstewart Conversion General Discussions 5 08-10-2010 12:14 AM
Using the alternator to charge deep cell battery bikeforthelight Electrical, Charging and Solar 4 10-14-2009 12:05 PM
lOOKING for small 3 cylinder diesel engine frank-id Mechanical and Drivetrains 12 10-19-2008 08:52 PM
Suburban engine too small? SKOOLBOY Conversion General Discussions 2 07-05-2006 01:02 AM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.