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Old 12-01-2011, 09:43 PM   #11
wtd
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

Quote:
An inverter would need a seperate fuse.
Not exactly so.
An inverter is just like any other device - if it draws more current than the fuse block and fuse (or breaker) is rated for then you need a separate fuse. If the draw falls within the rating of the block and you use an appropriately sized fuse (or breaker) you can run it through the block like any other device. Doesn't need a separate fuse just because it's an inverter. There are many inverters made that'll just plug into your car's cigarette lighter, no separate fuse.
It just happens that many inverters have large current draws requiring a separate fuse because the draw exceeds the rating of any available block or breaker and that's what most people are used to seeing. That point was made way back in one of the posts. We've been yammering about a 200 watt inverter which falls well within the range of a 25 amp fuse and an appropriate fuse block and should require no separate fuse.
On the other hand - maybe I'm missing something? I've done it before, will probably do it again ....

Tom
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:22 PM   #12
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

I was thinking of a 2000 plus watt inverter-charger. Something on the order of a 200 to 300 amp fuse.
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:31 PM   #13
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

wtd: dood...you crack me up and you're right, im sure me not not being consitent is not helping the cause...Let me try again.
The diagrams you made make things so much more sense. The question i meant to ask about it was, why is the fuse block necessary (as opposed to running a line from the battery to inverter?
As for the output question, on most inverter the only output is through a AC outlet. However some have wire post terminal to attach the gauged wire to. But after seeing your set up, i assume you can just plug a heavy duty drop cord in and cut and split the opposite end to wire up with the fuse box??
And sorry about the winds...that sounds like some Blizard of OZ weather hahaha. Thanks man!


Lorna: Yes i came across that niffty little guy the other night. Seems like it knocks it all out. So does the intillipower reallyy charge, or is it a false claim like some other inveters use?? Thanks!
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Old 12-01-2011, 11:52 PM   #14
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

You're supposed to have a main fuse close to the battery bank for all circuits. IIRC it's less than 3 feet. As far as the AC side of things, you're in the NEC code book. At least get a Wiring Simplified booklet. Extension cord as fixed wiring is not Code, fwiw. Just make sure your wires are fused/breakered to the correct current, and your grounds and neutrals are correct. That stuff can kill.
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Old 12-02-2011, 12:00 AM   #15
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by telluriders
The question i meant to ask about it was, why is the fuse block necessary (as opposed to running a line from the battery to inverter?
Because everything that comes off the battery must be fused. Even if the inverter was a big one like bus-bro mentioned and required it's own separate fuse, you'd still need a fuse block (or breakers)to provide protection for the other DC circuits - lights, pumps and whatnot.

Quote:
i assume you can just plug a heavy duty drop cord in and cut and split the opposite end to wire up with the fuse box??
Yup, you'd just run wire one end of a cable to the breaker box and put a plug on the other. That way, you're running off of the inverter when plugged into it and if you want to connect to shore power or a generator just unplug from the inverter and plug into the other power source. It's simple, but it has one outstanding benefit - idiot proofness - no way to connect to two AC sources at the same time or to connect them to each other. Nothing like connecting the output of a 5000 watt generator to the output of a 700 watt inverter to brighten up an otherwise dull evening.
Mine's a little more complicated, I built a transfer switch that automatically switches the AC circuits from the inverter to the generator when I start the generator and switches back when I shut the generator down. But if I use shore power, I just do the unplug thing.
Quote:
However some have wire post terminal to attach the gauged wire to.
I've never seen one like this, but if you had one you'd just wire it in instead of using the plug. You'd have to figure out some other way to provide the inverter/shore power option tho', since the plug would be gone. I'd imagine the device itself would provide some means for that.
If the wind knocks down some tomorrow I'll get out and get a coupla decent pictures and do the 'Alice's Restaurant Littering Trial' thing them with circles and arrows and everythin' else and put 'em up to 'splain some more about the AC stuff. I didn't get everything in the shot I took today that I needed to make a good explanation.


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Old 12-03-2011, 12:57 AM   #16
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

For me??? You're too kind!
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:29 PM   #17
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

Pour tu -

This is my lash-up


Power comes into the box on the bottom from the generator - over to the breaker box.
From there, there's 2 circuits - the lower one (#2) is just for the water heater, it pulls ten amps.
Everything else is powered from one 15 amp circuit. The top box - AC zips out of there to the transfer switch thence into the bus, where it's distributed to 7 outlets spread all over the place.

If you're a person looking for a code or regulation to follow - but if you're gonna read it, but read the whole thing - including this -

From page 2 of the code -
"In issuing and making this document available, the NFPA is not undertaking to render professional or other services
for or on behalf of any person or entity. Nor is the NFPA undertaking to perform any duty owed by any person or entity
to someone else. Anyone using this document should rely on his or her own independent judgment or, as appropriate,
seek the advice of a competent professional in determining the exercise of reasonable care in any given circumstances."


"The NFPA has no power, nor does it undertake, to police or enforce compliance with the contents of this document.
Nor does the NFPA list, certify, test or inspect products, designs, or installations for compliance with this document.
Any certification or other statement of compliance with the requirements of this document shall not be attributable to
the NFPA and is solely the responsibility of the certifier or maker of the statement."


They pretty much urge you to use some judgement in applying this code rather than just blindly following it. There lotsa things to take into consideration, the NEC is just one of them. For example, I have 7 15 amp duplex outlets on one 15 amp branch circuit - this probably is way than than the code 'allows' - I don't know, I've never checked - but I'll never overload them, I understand the limitations and won't exceed them. Yes, it is possible that while I'm passed out drunk on the couch that some maniac with an obsession for omelets and curly hair may sneak in with a duffel bag of electric frying pans and curling irons, plug them all in and fry and curl us into a pile of ashes - I'll take the risk.NOthinhg wrong with the NEC, it's something to consider.

The portion specific to RV's is Article 551.

Well, so much for my ramblngs on the NEC - everybody's got their own point of view I reckon.

If you look at my system, complies with the NEC in some places. Here's a few 'fer instance's
Looking at the wiring from the generator to the receptacle box -
NEC Article 551.30
(E) Supply Conductors. The supply conductors from the engine generator to the first termination on the vehicle shall
be of the stranded type and be installed in listed flexible conduit or listed liquidtight flexible conduit. The point of
first termination shall be in one of the following:
(1) Panelboard
(2) Junction box with a blank cover
(3) Junction box with a receptacle
(4) Enclosed transfer switch
(5) Receptacle assembly listed in conjunction with the
generator

Swing and a miss on the conduit. Outta the park on the termination, 551.30(e)(3).

For the supply from the generator termination to the breaker box (panelboard in the NEC) ,. we fail miserably - because it's assembled improperly or inadequately?

551.46 Means for Connecting to Power Supply.
(A) Assembly. The power-supply assembly or assemblies shall be factory supplied or factory installed and be of one
of the types specified herein.
(1) Separable. Where a separable power-supply assembly consisting of a cord with a female connector and molded
attachment plug cap is provided, the vehicle shall be equipped with a permanently mounted, flanged surface inlet
(male, recessed-type motor-base attachment plug) wired directly to the distribution panelboard by an approved wiring
method. The attachment plug cap shall be of a listed type.
(2) Permanently Connected. Each power-supply assembly shall be connected directly to the terminals of the distribution
panelboard or conductors within a junction box and provided with means to prevent strain from being
transmitted to the terminals. The ampacity of the conductors between each junction box and the terminals of each
distribution panelboard shall be at least equal to the ampacity of the power-supply cord. The supply end of the assembly
shall be equipped with an attachment plug of the type described in 551.46(C). Where the cord passes through the
walls or floors, it shall be protected by means of conduit and bushings or equivalent. The cord assembly shall have
permanent provisions for protection against corrosion and mechanical damage while the vehicle is in transit.

No - we hit 551.46(2) like a ton of bricks (except our plug doesn't look like their picture), but we fail on 551.46(A), I made the cable - it's not "factory supplied or factory installed " So for goodness sakes, don't go making any cables out there!

Anyhow, that's my system as I mentioned I'd post yesterday - won't win andy friends among the code zealots, but ... c'est la vie ...we each have our won bus.

Tom
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:07 AM   #18
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtd
Pour tu -

This is my lash-up


Power comes into the box on the bottom from the generator - over to the breaker box.
From there, there's 2 circuits - the lower one (#2) is just for the water heater, it pulls ten amps.
Everything else is powered from one 15 amp circuit. The top box - AC zips out of there to the transfer switch thence into the bus, where it's distributed to 7 outlets spread all over the place.

If you're a person looking for a code or regulation to follow - but if you're gonna read it, but read the whole thing - including this -

From page 2 of the code -
"In issuing and making this document available, the NFPA is not undertaking to render professional or other services
for or on behalf of any person or entity. Nor is the NFPA undertaking to perform any duty owed by any person or entity
to someone else. Anyone using this document should rely on his or her own independent judgment or, as appropriate,
seek the advice of a competent professional in determining the exercise of reasonable care in any given circumstances."


"The NFPA has no power, nor does it undertake, to police or enforce compliance with the contents of this document.
Nor does the NFPA list, certify, test or inspect products, designs, or installations for compliance with this document.
Any certification or other statement of compliance with the requirements of this document shall not be attributable to
the NFPA and is solely the responsibility of the certifier or maker of the statement."


They pretty much urge you to use some judgement in applying this code rather than just blindly following it. There lotsa things to take into consideration, the NEC is just one of them. For example, I have 7 15 amp duplex outlets on one 15 amp branch circuit - this probably is way than than the code 'allows' - I don't know, I've never checked - but I'll never overload them, I understand the limitations and won't exceed them. Yes, it is possible that while I'm passed out drunk on the couch that some maniac with an obsession for omelets and curly hair may sneak in with a duffel bag of electric frying pans and curling irons, plug them all in and fry and curl us into a pile of ashes - I'll take the risk.NOthinhg wrong with the NEC, it's something to consider.

The portion specific to RV's is Article 551.

Well, so much for my ramblngs on the NEC - everybody's got their own point of view I reckon.

If you look at my system, complies with the NEC in some places. Here's a few 'fer instance's
Looking at the wiring from the generator to the receptacle box -
NEC Article 551.30
(E) Supply Conductors. The supply conductors from the engine generator to the first termination on the vehicle shall
be of the stranded type and be installed in listed flexible conduit or listed liquidtight flexible conduit. The point of
first termination shall be in one of the following:
(1) Panelboard
(2) Junction box with a blank cover
(3) Junction box with a receptacle
(4) Enclosed transfer switch
(5) Receptacle assembly listed in conjunction with the
generator

Swing and a miss on the conduit. Outta the park on the termination, 551.30(e)(3).

For the supply from the generator termination to the breaker box (panelboard in the NEC) ,. we fail miserably - because it's assembled improperly or inadequately?

551.46 Means for Connecting to Power Supply.
(A) Assembly. The power-supply assembly or assemblies shall be factory supplied or factory installed and be of one
of the types specified herein.
(1) Separable. Where a separable power-supply assembly consisting of a cord with a female connector and molded
attachment plug cap is provided, the vehicle shall be equipped with a permanently mounted, flanged surface inlet
(male, recessed-type motor-base attachment plug) wired directly to the distribution panelboard by an approved wiring
method. The attachment plug cap shall be of a listed type.
(2) Permanently Connected. Each power-supply assembly shall be connected directly to the terminals of the distribution
panelboard or conductors within a junction box and provided with means to prevent strain from being
transmitted to the terminals. The ampacity of the conductors between each junction box and the terminals of each
distribution panelboard shall be at least equal to the ampacity of the power-supply cord. The supply end of the assembly
shall be equipped with an attachment plug of the type described in 551.46(C). Where the cord passes through the
walls or floors, it shall be protected by means of conduit and bushings or equivalent. The cord assembly shall have
permanent provisions for protection against corrosion and mechanical damage while the vehicle is in transit.

No - we hit 551.46(2) like a ton of bricks (except our plug doesn't look like their picture), but we fail on 551.46(A), I made the cable - it's not "factory supplied or factory installed " So for goodness sakes, don't go making any cables out there!

Anyhow, that's my system as I mentioned I'd post yesterday - won't win andy friends among the code zealots, but ... c'est la vie ...we each have our won bus.

Tom

Yeah.....nice details.....what a FILE of codes!!! But all of your visuals help me...(as we like to say in the south) "im wunna dem kEn'esthetic lurners." Your advise has helped me to better consolidate out plan and complete it in a orgnaized fashion (something i sometimes fail to employ.) Thanks so much for your help....ill keep you posted once i go do some measurements and calculus!!
And....when are they gonna start making some of you sayings into T-shirts to sell under apparel on Skoolie???/
"Yes, it is possible that while I'm passed out drunk on the couch that some maniac with an obsession for omelets and curly hair may sneak in with a duffel bag of electric frying pans and curling irons, plug them all in and fry and curl us into a pile of ashes "
That shits gold!
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:44 AM   #19
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by telluriders
... So does the intillipower reallyy charge, or is it a false claim like some other inveters use?? Thanks!
Yes, it really works. And it's a smart charger, so we won't fry the batteries. The Intelli-power outfit (Progressive Dynamics) makes decent inverter, chargers, etc. But do your own research before you take my word on it. Be a smart consumer, ALWAYS research before you buy. We did a break down on the pricing and decided that it is cheaper to buy the Mighty Mini than everything separately . Plus everything is in one neat box and since I am putting the panel box inside the living quarters of the bus, that was also a plus.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:05 PM   #20
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Re: Selecting the correct alternator?? Any opinions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske
Quote:
Originally Posted by telluriders
... So does the intillipower reallyy charge, or is it a false claim like some other inveters use?? Thanks!
Yes, it really works. And it's a smart charger, so we won't fry the batteries. The Intelli-power outfit (Progressive Dynamics) makes decent inverter, chargers, etc. But do your own research before you take my word on it. Be a smart consumer, ALWAYS research before you buy. We did a break down on the pricing and decided that it is cheaper to buy the Mighty Mini than everything separately . Plus everything is in one neat box and since I am putting the panel box inside the living quarters of the bus, that was also a plus.
Hi Lorna!
I was perusing our inverter discussion, after doing some frame work on the bus, and have decided to use the intelli power system. Thus, i was curious as to what type and number of batteries you were using in your system (Basically you set up) ? As i read some horror stories about certain batteries not taking kindly to the intelli power's charging cap. Any info would be great!
thanks,
-jake
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