Allison 2000/3000 Unlocking 6th gear?

[lucasd]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

All right, then....
I'm looking at a 1997 with mechanical 12 valve 5.9 and MD 3060.

And I'm almost tempted to wonder if that combination is possible? No electronic signals from the engine?

It should be possible. The 3000 series have their own transmission control module for control purposes. If I'm reading the docs right, it doesn't require any electronic input from the engine. It directly reads all of the sensors it needs information from - throttle position, input and output shaft speeds, etc. It connects directly to the dashboard control pad.

I don't see why it couldn't be set up with an all manual engine as long as the TCM had the correct programming for which RPMs it should shift at.

[ColoradoCummins]

Originally Posted by Rusty

I was afraid of that, so I think I'll just pay the Tech his $300 to reprogram.

Rusty, Just found this thread. I too have been stonewalled by BB and EVERY Allison shop in the Denver Metro area.

Were you successful?

[Scooternj]

Originally Posted by ColoradoCummins

Rusty, Just found this thread. I too have been stonewalled by BB and EVERY Allison shop in the Denver Metro area.

Were you successful?

Have you contacted Allison directly, to get an authorization letter from the manufacturer? PCS was successful in getting 6th unlocked on his bus going that route.

[cadillackid]

I talked to the fine folks at CAC (custom automatic conversions) {formerly cummins allison conversions}. in florida while I was picking up my new trans..

the think that they can unlock 6th gear on Most of the MD-3060's out there.
I have no idea on cost, I typically dont post pricing as i feel its up to those to negotiate their own deals...

my guess is it will require you sending them your TCM and having them re-flash it and send it back to you.

it cant hurt to give them a call and talk to them. they do some neat stuff with Allisons..
they are busy, be patient if you email or call them. I witnessed the craziness of Race-season-Summer .. leave a message if they dont answer.

CAConversions


There is NO 6th GEAR in the 1000/2000 series transmissions like pre-05 / 06, so unless your bus is newer dont try with a 1000 / 2XXX variant, this is only for 3000 series.

and of course if oyu have an AT / MT series these are Non electronic, 4 gear transmissions.. (AT545 / MT643).. so these cant be electronically upgraded.

at the very least you will need to take pictures of your TCM and any labels on it so they can look it up.

-Christopher

[Rameses]

Man, that's crazy that you posted this right now.

While you were typing that out, I was dropping my TCM off someplace to get it re-programmed.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Rameses

Man, that's crazy that you posted this right now.

While you were typing that out, I was dropping my TCM off someplace to get it re-programmed.

im interested to hear your success, as aftermarket places dont need all the letters and BS to do it like the dealers want.

im relatively New to learning about the ins and outs of Allison stuff as im just now in the meat of my 545 to 1000 (6 speed) conversion..

seems a list of shops that can take a TCM no questions asked and re-flash it are needed. I had wondered if it was easy as Buying the DOC software and plugging in a TCM...
-Christopher

[Rusty]

Somebody asked if I got mine done- not yet as he wanted the entire vehicle (not just computer) and I just got her running and am not legal yet. I haven't even been up to hiway speeds yet- may already be unlocked for all I know.

There are different 'sized' Allison dealers- some only handle small 1000, 2000 series, others handle mid- heavy range trans 3000, etc. so make sure you look on Allison website if they handle your trans family before calling.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Somebody asked if I got mine done- not yet as he wanted the entire vehicle (not just computer) and I just got her running and am not legal yet. I haven't even been up to hiway speeds yet- may already be unlocked for all I know.

There are different 'sized' Allison dealers- some only handle small 1000, 2000 series, others handle mid- heavy range trans 3000, etc. so make sure you look on Allison website if they handle your trans family before calling.

the one I posted is not an allison dealer.. part of the issue is allison dealers want the whole vehicle and if they see something they dont like.. ie they may not like your rear gears, or tire size, etc.. they will require changes be made before reflashing.. or may require release paperwork from the manufacturer..
-Christopher

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

im interested to hear your success, as aftermarket places dont need all the letters and BS to do it like the dealers want.

im relatively New to learning about the ins and outs of Allison stuff as im just now in the meat of my 545 to 1000 (6 speed) conversion..

seems a list of shops that can take a TCM no questions asked and re-flash it are needed. I had wondered if it was easy as Buying the DOC software and plugging in a TCM...
-Christopher

I'll definitely post up the results. Hopefully they're good.

The place I took it to isn't aftermarket. They have an Allison logo on the front of the building.

It definitely isn't as easy as hooking up a laptop with the Allison DOC software. I already tried that. There's a separate section of the software that's only made available to dealers, evidently. They tell Allison the file they need to flash to the TCM and Allison sends it to them. It's a single use file of some sort.

I dropped off a second TCM. That way, if the results are unsatisfactory for any reason, I'll still be able to put my original back in and still be functional. If everything works out like I'm hoping it will, I'll get into details about how I got it done.

[EastCoastCB]

I guess if you have to ask you can't afford it??

[Rameses]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I guess if you have to ask you can't afford it??

We'll see. There hasn't been any discussion of price yet. I don't think it'll be too terribly bad though.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I guess if you have to ask you can't afford it??

unfortunately it seems like in every aspect of Vehicle-Dom. power and speed end up with the $$ being exponential to the MPH and HP numbers..

when I embarked on the research for the ailed AT545, the cheapest wouldve obviously been to go find a used AT545 or just bench mine at a trans shop to rebuild.. ($1500 or so to rebuild one)...

so I thought used 643.. but wait they have the wrong bell.. so then im removing spacers and finding my flexplate is wrong and hub is wrong.. shorten the driveshaft...

used allison 2000, still need harness and TCM, oh and factory thats all integrated.. my ECM **Might** control a 2000, most of what i found was SAE2 bell to go behind DT-466's and even used they were pricey.. for $1000 more I get a fully reman updated and built up trans.. (6 speed and not 5)

electronics.. yeah those.. so then id need an updated ECM (still talking used 5 speed 2000).. now my engine serial has to be within ranges to support the ECM that talked to the TCM.. finding a T-444E that i could snipe the TCM, ECM, and harness altogether off of was getting tougher and Pricier all the time..

could i make my own wire harness? and run a TCM standalone.. sure if I sent the TCM off somewhere to be flashed to run without the CAN integration to an ECM.. then the special connectors that plug into the TCM and the transmission.. pricey when you are just a guy buying qty 1.. can we say list price?

next thought was to sell the bus with a halfass working trans in it.. and go buy another one.. so lets see must be new enough to have overdrive, A/C , 6 window shorty, rust free, either a 466E or a 444E,(good luck.. most things new enough to not be a 545 had VT-365's..) then pay to paint it.. and I still have a used transmission.. and probably the same or more $$ esp the way prices on busses are going this year..

by the time all was said and done.. what makes the Most sense was to bite the bullet and get all of it as a matched set.. matched to my bus(weight, gearing, power, etc), my engine, my wiring... and SUPPORT from the shop that sells me the equipment..

im also told by more than one, (including navistar themselves) that the new 6speed trans will solve all my cooling issues..

there WERE other less expensive options such as putting a Stick shift in it, however i really dont want a stick shift.. not as much driving as i do in town and in the hills on the road..

I dont know what rameses is getting charged to re-flash his TCM.. however I had been quoted anything from $350 - $1000 just to reflash a TCM...

in my past I built electronic Transmission controllers out of micro-controllers, however I have no idea if we could build our own TCM's cheaply that would effectively control these allisons.. the TCM's have learning capabilities in them.. when you get a freshly re-flashed TCM, you must "teach" it about your vehicle.

you basically drive it like you stole in preferrably on flat ground the first few cycles.. the TCM "learns" the TPS, RPM characteristics, weight (rate of speed rise), it learns the best way to shift to maximize power for your vehicle during this period.. failing to do this results in a Hard-set code.. (clearable i believe by DOC). (normally this procedure is done by the factory test drive of the vehicle).. after that the TCM slowly adapts to your methods of driving.. im told that anytime you re-flash a TCM you must perform the initial 'Teach'. including when 6th gear is unlocked..
-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

I was talking about the 6th gear unlock, man.

What you just said above makes perfect sense though. Hell once you figure out everything, I'm thinking of doing the same this "winter" when I have more time.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I was talking about the 6th gear unlock, man.

What you just said above makes perfect sense though. Hell once you figure out everything, I'm thinking of doing the same this "winter" when I have more time.

I got quotes from $350 - $1000 to reprogram a TCM.. im really interested ot hear if rameses can get it spurced say on a per hour basis like a one hpur $150 charge or something.. that would rock for those with MD-3060s!!

-Christopher

[family wagon]

My local dealer shop, a year or two ago, on the phone, tossed out a figure around $300 for flashing. I believe he understood I wanted a new calibration, not merely a few basic things twiddled in DOC. There remained the hurdle of getting OEM approval though. I haven't taken the bus to them yet because I hope when I'm done working on the body it'll look sufficiently different to "Blue Bird Bus" that I'll be able to persuade them it's really not Blue Bird's baby any more, it's a totally custom rig, let's do custom things to it. But we'll see... I may easily find myself knocking on the door at CAC instead.

[Rusty]

$300 was what Allison by me said. He didn't seem to care what it was in, but never saw what it really is

I got mine running good, just need to convert into RV, get the Secretary of State Police to come out and inspect, retitle as RV. In Illinois. So, 2018 probably...

[boojiewoojie]

Just called them. Talked to Dave and he said it depends on the computer. So I'm gonna send him a picture and if he can do it I'm gonna try it out. He didn't give a price, he said let's see if it's the right computer first. I've got a 3060...

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

There is NO 6th GEAR in the 1000/2000 series transmissions like pre-05 / 06, so unless your bus is newer dont try with a 1000 / 2XXX variant, this is only for 3000 series.
-Christopher

You can get 6th gear with a valve body swap and a tcm reprogram. Cost is over a grand though the last I checked. Just trying to eliminate misinformation.

I'll be really interested to see if they can unlock 6th gear without any paperwork.

Best bet is to still fudge the numbers and tell them it's a box truck with the same engine / year with 6th already enabled.

[Rusty]

Nobody else mentioned new valve body in the equation. I don't know why they would install unused solenoids for double-overdrive, but never cracked one open.

There is this:

These transmissions are also electronically controlled and use the J1939 CAN databus to glean engine and other system information IIRC. I believe that it is a bit more involved than just needing a TPS. All of my experience with the Allison transmissions have been with the WTEC III and WTEC IV however so I don't know how the earlier stuff worked.

The 5 vs. 6 speed transmission stuff is also all in the computer calibration and possibly a bit of wiring from what I've been told. The WTEC III controller had limited IO so depending on what vocation package you were trying to run you may be limited to a 5 speed transmission rather than being able to use it as a 6 speed.

[cadillackid]

you are saying even on the Pre-05 stuff that they have the solenoids in the valve body already? I thought that it required a complete valve body upgrade and of course a TCM with the capable software... thats why I mentioned that 6th isnt available on the pre 05 stuff because i figured the average skoolie isnt going to re[lace a valve body themselves... ytou are looking at well over a grand if you drive your bus to an allison dealer to have a new valve body installed and a TCM reprogram...

and when im done I still have a used transmission with a new valve body and program in it.. my experience has been when you tear apart a high mileage transmission and put it back together with fresh fluid and all is 30% of the time you lose the transmission...

at what point do you spend the extra grand or 2 and get a freshly built fully updated transmission that has what you want in it?

-Christopher