|
|
06-10-2018, 11:22 AM
|
#161
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,757
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
|
some of the TPS modules are designed to speak J1939 which is how the trans would talk to an ECM inlater models.. the CAT TPS provided a different signal which is a modified analog signal.. im not sure what cummins used on theirs. there are 3rd parties that make TPS boxes which take a mechanical throttle linkage and speak J1939 so it can be used with newer TCM's. thats what the folks at CAC (custom automatic conversions) do.. they swap 4BT and 6BT engines and allison 6 speeds into all kinds of stuff.. jason at transmissiontuner dot com has some throttle related devices too.. idea being to do exactly what you suggest.. installing a modern 6 speed TCM into a mechanical engine.. first thing i'd do though is see if you can get at your TCM and read its label.. I dont have my spare TCM in front of me to show you the stamp on the label. some TCM's will fall back to analog throttle mode if the J1939 fails.. (never experienced it personally.. just was info given to me.. ) - those could be used either way.. Tango is putting a 6 speed 2000 in his mechanical 4BT..and is using a J1939 box that connects to his throttle linkage..
-Christopher
|
|
|
06-10-2018, 12:21 PM
|
#162
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
Has anyone received an approval letter from IH/Navistar for 6th gear range increase? Could a copy be posted for reference? We have an example of one from Thomas (at the beginning of this thread? In one of these threads...), but it would be nice to see them from the other OEM’s as well; IH being the one I’m invested in...
|
|
|
06-10-2018, 01:27 PM
|
#163
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
First off—Chris, THANK YOU for the excellent info! The systems (especially software) you often discuss are completely unfamiliar to me, but you explain them in a way that is accessible. And you consistently dignify others, including those of us who obviously don’t know what we’re talking about. Thanks!
So potentially we could swap a modern (which means J1939?) TCM with 6speed programming onto an older mechanical unit! What other hardware would need to follow? Tranny/TCM wiring harness? Compatible TPS? Seems like it might be simpler to find an older style (same as currently installed) that has the 6 speed programming, but would the matching TPS have to follow? What would be involved in teaching the TCM to understand a different TPS?
Quote—“first thing i'd do though is see if you can get at your TCM and read its label.”
I did find my TCM and got a pic of the stickers.
By the way: what’s the difference/relationship between J1939 and WTEC2/3/4?
|
|
|
06-10-2018, 02:24 PM
|
#164
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: pa
Posts: 2,498
Year: 98
Coachwork: 1. Corbeil & 2. Thomas
Chassis: 1 ford 1998 e350 4x4 7.3 2 mercedes 2004
Engine: 7.3 powerstroke & MBE906
|
I have one for an MD3060 with 6spd programming that i bought for my B300R behinde a mbe906. The tcm I got was for an unknown engine( at least by me) I did not try it after I read more thru the allison manual and realized that the b300R and MD3060 were probably to far apart to get it to work.
If anybody with an MD3060 wants to buy and experiment with it then let me know.
Later J
|
|
|
06-10-2018, 02:29 PM
|
#165
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
Do you know what year it’s from? Is it WTEC2 or 3 or4?
|
|
|
06-10-2018, 02:37 PM
|
#166
|
Bus Crazy
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: pa
Posts: 2,498
Year: 98
Coachwork: 1. Corbeil & 2. Thomas
Chassis: 1 ford 1998 e350 4x4 7.3 2 mercedes 2004
Engine: 7.3 powerstroke & MBE906
|
Sorry, just walked to the shop to make a picture of the label but could not find it where i thought it was. . ....of memory wtec3 .
later J
|
|
|
06-10-2018, 04:36 PM
|
#167
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,757
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
|
if I remember right.. and this is an IF as i havent read up on it in a while..
WTEC - II J1708(to the shifter only) (however no CAN2 port was present for TCM diagnostics). from what I understand all of the throttle Position sensors on WTEC-II are simply resistance based.
WTEC - III J1939(CAN2 port on TCM allows for scan tool to be plugged in directly to TCM)(and allows for J1939 TPS) this came out i think in the late 90s to coincide with many manufacturers offering electronic engines
in my late 99 T444E engine its claimed to have a WTEC III interface for MD transmissions.. the language it speaks is Pure J1939 .. I run a GEN5 (2017) TCM and get my throttle info from my engine computer directly to the TCM
as long as the J1939 interface from the engine provides PGN's 61443 and 61444 (PGN's are snippets of data that contains engine parameters sent over the data link.. each PGN number is slightly different data.. everything from engine throttle, engine load factor, RPM as in those 2 PGN;s)the throttle will work on that electronic engine without a Box between..
when i was messing with my engine before I got my J1939 link to work I toyed with a mechanical sensor.. I attached the troubleshooting guide for it.. the computer sends out a 5 volt signal. and depending on the voltage it gets back, the TCM knows TPS..so in the chart in the document it shows the various voltages vs actual position.. the resistance ofthe TPS changes as you move it thus how the voltages change.. 3 wires.. +5, SGNL, Ground. the TCM measures voltage between Groiund and SGNL..
Hope this helps a little?
-Christopher
|
|
|
06-10-2018, 06:07 PM
|
#168
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
It does help Chris. If I follow correctly I can use any WTEC-2 (my application) that is programmed for the md3060 that has 6th gear enabled. What other factors am I missing to make a plug-in swap?—other than laying my hands on a WTEC-2 with 6gear programming?
|
|
|
06-11-2018, 03:59 AM
|
#169
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
|
|
|
06-24-2018, 10:20 PM
|
#170
|
Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Grass Valley, Ca
Posts: 48
Year: 2002
Coachwork: American Transportation Corp
Chassis: 40 foot
Engine: DT466HT 230 HP / 660 FP
Rated Cap: 72 Passenger
|
6th Gear
My bus has an MD3060. This weekend I sent IH / Navistar my request for approval to turn on 6th gear. I guess now I just wait......
Bob
|
|
|
06-26-2018, 09:08 PM
|
#171
|
Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Grass Valley, Ca
Posts: 48
Year: 2002
Coachwork: American Transportation Corp
Chassis: 40 foot
Engine: DT466HT 230 HP / 660 FP
Rated Cap: 72 Passenger
|
I got my first response from I/H. A request for more info on their "iKNow Sixth Gear iRequest" form. Will fill it out and get it returned. The tech said he would get a cost once it's submitted. Cool, a response in 3 days! I'm not in any hurry to get this done but I'm dying of curiosity to know if I can.
|
|
|
06-26-2018, 09:37 PM
|
#172
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
Bob, I hope it goes well! If they turn you down there are still options. Getting the necessary numbers (VIN, tranny serial # and TCM #’s) from a bus/truck/motor home with the same engine and tranny, but with 6gear programming will work. I’m still looking for a match...
|
|
|
06-26-2018, 09:52 PM
|
#173
|
Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Grass Valley, Ca
Posts: 48
Year: 2002
Coachwork: American Transportation Corp
Chassis: 40 foot
Engine: DT466HT 230 HP / 660 FP
Rated Cap: 72 Passenger
|
How and where do you look to find a match??
|
|
|
06-27-2018, 12:03 AM
|
#174
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
Good question! I put my power-train info on several forums (so far that hasn’t worked... so far), I’ve called salvage yards, I keep an eye out for International (my manufacturer) trucks of a similar year to mine... so far no success, but at least these doors haven’t been shut on me like the official route. There probably is a better way to find a match, but I don’t know it. If you find a better way please share!
|
|
|
06-27-2018, 12:23 AM
|
#175
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
Meddle, as far as I know you don’t have to find a matching bus, but rather any IH truck with your power train, a DT466E/md3060 (with 6th gear programming, of course). Since my DT466 is mechanically controlled injection I haven’t paid any attention to the DT466E’s, but I’ll start looking for one now in case IH doesn’t give you a green light.
|
|
|
06-27-2018, 06:53 AM
|
#176
|
Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Grass Valley, Ca
Posts: 48
Year: 2002
Coachwork: American Transportation Corp
Chassis: 40 foot
Engine: DT466HT 230 HP / 660 FP
Rated Cap: 72 Passenger
|
My engine is actually a DT466HT 230 HP / 660 FP torque.
|
|
|
06-27-2018, 11:22 AM
|
#177
|
Almost There
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Alaska
Posts: 80
Year: 1996
Coachwork: American Fire & Rescue
Chassis: IH 4900
Engine: DT466 250hp P-pump
|
Meddle, thanks for the correction! So it’s mechanically controlled injection? With the P-pump? What year? Mine is also the DT466 HT with the P-pump. In the opinion of some, not all, this is the DT to have.
|
|
|
06-30-2018, 10:46 AM
|
#178
|
Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Grass Valley, Ca
Posts: 48
Year: 2002
Coachwork: American Transportation Corp
Chassis: 40 foot
Engine: DT466HT 230 HP / 660 FP
Rated Cap: 72 Passenger
|
Bus is a 2002. The engine i.d. tag also says 2002. It is electronically controlled injection.
|
|
|
07-04-2018, 11:48 AM
|
#179
|
Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Grass Valley, Ca
Posts: 48
Year: 2002
Coachwork: American Transportation Corp
Chassis: 40 foot
Engine: DT466HT 230 HP / 660 FP
Rated Cap: 72 Passenger
|
On the 6th gear request form they wanted to know current vehicle top speed which I did not know. I took it out on a level piece of highway and discovered it does 70 mph at 2400 rpm ( max governed engine speed ). At 60 mph I'm turning 2000 rpm. If I can get 6th gear turned on, I'm guessing at 60mph my engine speed should drop to about 1800 rpm. I think that would boost mpg and performance since peak torque of 660 ft/lbs is at 1400 rpm. Now it's just wait for a yes or no.
|
|
|
07-04-2018, 01:12 PM
|
#180
|
Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,757
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
|
I’d have told them 60 is the max speed .. most no one will unlock 6th if the top speed will be over 75. For one the tires are usually rate at max 75. Just seems I’ve heard of manufacturers nixing any possible speed above that.
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Threads |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|