AT1545 thread

[turf]

my Torque converter and flywheel are still down at the machine shop. i went this morning to check on the parts and they havent moved from where i put them down a couple of weeks ago. they promise next week.

the bolts may have been too long. i don't recall what they were now, but it was 5mm off what i went for. which ever direction, i thought i was still safe.
one of the bolts definately felt sketchy when it went together. like you mentioned, possibly not flush. it was crossed and at the time i felt it best just to rachet it down instead of pulling it out, cleaning up threads and refastening. it was the wrong choice in hind sight.

i think the flywheel with ring is the way to go. i had talked to someone that did a mt643 swap and they described their process as making a "custom flywheel".

i can balance the flywheel like a mower blade. thats not to complicated. fingers crossed that it all comes back together next week.

[Booyah45828]

If the bolts were bottomed out and not tight the holes in the flywheel would have been hammered out of round, and I don't see any evidence of that in the picture.

The flexplate is meant to give and bend ever so slightly in order to conform to the torque converter. That flexing, coupled with the narrow footprint of the spacers, caused the bolts to rock back and forth causing them to fatigue and snap off.

That's my theory anyways.

[cadillackid]

it wouldve also been extremely noisy if the bolts werent flush with the flywheel.. you wouldve thought you were about to throw a rod.. thats how it sounds, esp at idle.
-Christopher

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by turf

my Torque converter and flywheel are still down at the machine shop. i went this morning to check on the parts and they havent moved from where i put them down a couple of weeks ago. they promise next week.

That stinks. Good you stopped by to remind them about your project.

EDM machines are cool for removing broken taps, bolts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USGXoRI-g4k

[turf]

brand new shiny ring from the machine shop.



and all the broken bolts removed from the TC and clean to go again.



hoping to put it back together in a day or 3.

[JA Savage]

Hey Dave, hope this time everything stays together and works for you.

[turf]

thanks mr savage!! hope you guys are doing well!

i think the transmission will come together.... for better or worse. lol

i just trekked thru your neck of the woods and had encounter with the Lincoln county sherriff. i was on my way to Alamosa and around Karvel i decided to take a little rest stop. i turned off hwy 71 on a dirt road and went a half mile off the highway. middle of no where, Colorado. i parked, jumped out, let my dog out to run and take a break. As i jump out, i see what i think is a cop car on the highway, buts its too far away to make it out. it just looks like one. black and white and some letters. it passes the dirt road i turned off on, and keeps on going.

well, i gotta take a break too , ya know? and i un-zip my pants and the cop hits his lights. I'm like.... no way.... something else is going on. i finish up. the cop slowed down and just over the hill was a big crane something...oversized load. i thought, oh, he's just meeting a load to escort it thru the county or something. the cop turned around behind the crane and followed it back to the side road i was taking my break on. he turned down my road and the lights came back on and he was beeping his siren at me.

i was lucky. my dog was near and grabbed ahold of him while the nice officer came by to see if we needed assistance. "nothing to see here, officer, we're just passin thru". i guess its good to know you won't be stranded long in Lincoln county if you break down. hardly long enough to take a leak.


now, back to the transmission.

ive, been working on balancing the flywheel. i've rigged up a little top made of a funnel and bolt. spinning the flywheel on the funnel identifies the heavy side. when it balances, the funnel dosent scrape on the ground when you spin it.

the 3 bolts on the one side, seems to balance the spinning top. i'll still tweak it, before i start grinding metal off the ring to balance it for good.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by turf

i just trekked thru your neck of the woods and had encounter with the Lincoln county sherriff.

now, back to the transmission.

ive, been working on balancing the flywheel. i've rigged up a little top made of a funnel and bolt. spinning the flywheel on the funnel identifies the heavy side. when it balances, the funnel dosent scrape on the ground when you spin it.

" Yer not from around heeeere, are ya boy? "

This isn't a lawnmower blade you are balancing. Get it done right or repeat the job. those skimpy bolts only work under ideal conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8F_ZtMhNk

[Kubla]

before you start grinding, find out if the flywheel is supposed to be perfectly balanced or if it is for an externally balanced engine and is intentionally off balance, I do not know if international had one like that

[cadillackid]

cool idea on the spinning top, except I wouldve balanced the ring separately.. gettingf the ring centered is every bit as important as balance.. so if you ewnd up balancing the set but it causes the ring to be slightly off center then bearings or seals someplace may suffer..

if your ORIGINAL setup is like mine, the holes in the ring were BARELY clearance holes for the converter bolts.. so it didnt have a way to not be centered..

and then my ring has studs in the flywheel portion.. the concept behind this is that the converter nose inserts into the pilot hub of the flywheel which ensures that the converter is centered in the flywheel.. and ytou then putr the nuts on the studs sticking through.. (one at a time through the acess hole)...

on mine there was no key to orientation so it means the flywheel and converter ring werent balances as a set..

if Kubla's theory is right then your flywheel will be indexed and only fit in one orientation.. if it fits in different roationas then it in and of itself isnt part of the balance equation..

-Christopher

[turf]

nice point to check how balanced the original flywheel spins. i'll try it without the new ring.
there is not much room for the bolts to fit thru the holes., its a tight fit in the new ring as well.

the machine shop pointed out their reference marks when the drilled the ring. it fits any way you put it, but that is the way they drilled.



and my top.
the bolt has a round head on it and thats a left over hole from my hole saw.

i might try a tire shop to see if they could balance it. i dont think there is a fancy machine like the video within a 100 miles of me.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by turf

i might try a tire shop to see if they could balance it. i dont think there is a fancy machine like the video within a 100 miles of me.

Ship it ??

Here is DIY balancing



The energy stored in the rotating member can be computed by the following formula which assumes the mass of the spokes and hub are negligible.

Let VelocityFtPerSec be the velocity of the mean radius of the rim.
Let AccelGravityFtPerSec2 = 32.16
Let RimLbs be the weight of the flywheel rim
EnergyFtLbs = RimLbs * (VelocityFtPerSec ^ 2) / (2 * AccelGravityFtPerSec2)

The amount of energy that can safely be stored depends on the point at which the rotor will warp or shatter which in turn depends on the material. Materials with the highest specific tensile strength will yield the highest energy storage.

The theoretical limit on rim velocity, which is independent of radius, when considering only hoop tension stress is:
VelocityFeetPerSec = SQRT (10 * RimMaterialTensileStressLbsPerSqInch)

One also has to consider the bending stress of the rim between spokes. This stress can be minimized by increasing the number of spokes, by using a disk structure or by increasing the rim's radial thickness.

Safety factors must also be included to account for a variety of other factors such as material imperfections, impact stresses, etc. For example, a safety factor of 10 to 13 is commonly used for the tensile strength of a cast-iron flywheel.

Designing flywheels for vehicles requires consideration of precession and the resulting resistance to change of the axis of rotation. For example, a flywheel having a horizontal rim would encounter a lateral force when driving over a hill or into a valley.

[cadillackid]

im also assuming that the pilot nose of the converter inserts into the hub of the flywheel and doesnt just butt up against it. that hub fit should be nice and snug and ensures that the converter is centered with the flywheel.. you can balance all day long but if the converter spins slightly off center thats going to cause a ton of forces at 2500 RPM.
rusty's calculations show the physics of the forces you are dealing with.

I only mentiopn this as I remember you had made some mods to the hub on the crankshaft.

that hub also helps to prevent gyroscoping of the converter.. when you have 80 pounds of metal rotating at 2500 RPM gyroscoping is a real concern.. esp when a flex plate is not a completely rigid piece.

since I dont have anything apart right now I cant give you a spec on how much the converter pilot needs to insert into that hub, but looking at your old converter you should be able to see a wear line on the pilot at the point of how far into the hub it went..

then you can test fit your new parts up onto the flywheel.. bolt up the flywheel, jack the converter up, put some marking paint on the pilot insert into the hub and put in a couple bolts and see how far in it goes.. (dont remove the jack, you dont reallty want the converter to just hang on the flexplate too long.. )
-Christopher

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Rusty

" Yer not from around heeeere, are ya boy? "

This isn't a lawnmower blade you are balancing. Get it done right or repeat the job. those skimpy bolts only work under ideal conditions.

I gave him the idea, because not everyone is near a place that can do that. The best method would be to take it to an automotive machine shop that has the correct equipment(I'd prefer something from CWT industries, there equipment is pretty slick and dead nuts accurate). But when the correct stuff isn't available, a static balance job is better then nothing at all, which is what the machine shop was going to do. Not sure if shipping and return is in the cards if he's in a time crunch.

Kubla, He's got a cummins 6bt, internally balanced, so no goofy stuff going on. Most inline 6 cylinder engines are internally balanced, it's just how the crank is naturally designed.

Turf, not sure on the rigidity of your balancer, I'd prefer something more rigid that will be able to show that it itself is balanced without the flexplate.

I'll also suggest again to mig weld the inside of the collar back up, and have the machine shop turn it back to size with a boring bar in order to fit the converter hub.

[turf]

thank you for all the replies.... i appreciate the help!

i tried the flywheel without the ring on my top and its about the same out of balance as with the ring. flywheel solo, took 1 bolt in the same area to spin the top. so it's a bit out of balance to begin with.

the ring is pretty heavy. heavier than the flywheel. 15ish pounds alone, then maybe the whole thing is 20 pounds.

the TC fits quite snug into the hub. its within a MM or 2 of hitting the bottom.

looking at it this morning, the little ridge that the machine shop left on the inside hub is fracturing away.



here is the mating surface, the TC.
the arrow at 12:00 shows the ring of wear, where the fractured ridge runs.
the arrow at 9:00 shows a faint ring of where the hub is when together.



so balance or not? seems like it should be. with the added weight of the ring, i think so.

imo, the fracturing probably happened after the bolts gave way. when its bolted, it should all flex together or not at all.

[cadillackid]

good deal.. as long as the hub on the flywheel does hit its edge flange on the converter before the ring has mated.. you dont want to have the fonverter fully seated and have any space between the ring and the converter bosses.

you just domt want to have to "draw in" any of the comnverter bolts.. that would make that flexplate flex.. otherwise the hub is perfect.. doesnrt need to bottom out (in fact you dont really want it to).. and tyou have enough of it inserted that will keep the converter spinning true to center.

the ring should help greatly! cant wait to see this bus go down the road!!!
-Christopher

[turf]

i'm very confident it will all fit together square and proper this time.

the bolt threads on the TC are clean and you can hand tighten a bolt all the way to the bottom. the firsttime it went together you'd go in a few threads and paint or debris interfered with the tightening. they all felt crossed.

if anything im wondering how well the thread lock will hold and if i should use some lock washers.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by turf

if anything im wondering how well the thread lock will hold and if i should use some lock washers.

No lock washers- just locktite. Bolts don't bottom-out when assembled, correct?


Grade 8 NAS Bolts are nice.

[turf]

thanks. i made sure that they are shorter than the posts.
there are however metric. so grade 10.9? which i think is similar to the grade 8 SAE.

i checked that DIY balance page pretty well and spun my top a hundred times or so. here is a vid of the flywheel balance. its the best i've had it.

at first the funnel scrapes the ground, but then the gyro forces correct it and it doesnt make another noise until it stops twisting. check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwy5_D6NsXI

the weight is about 150g or 5 ozs.

i also flipped the ring 180 degrees and tried it. same result. the ring appears balanced.

i'm guessing i need to drill some holes on the opposite sidefrom those nuts, or grind the edge off.

[Booyah45828]

Mark where the nuts are on the flexplate, make a line on the funnel and flexplate to show where they are, then rotate the funnel 180 degree in relation to the flexplate and see where that balances. I'm still leery of your funnel/bolt contraption.