Engine block heater?

[Rawlings]

Got the heating engine problem down.

What Diesel additive do you all recommend for my Detroit 671? So many brands and I want to make sure we.e I put in the fuel is not going to damage anything :/

[TJones]

Originally Posted by Rawlings

Got the heating engine problem down.

What Diesel additive do you all recommend for my Detroit 671? So many brands and I want to make sure we.e I put in the fuel is not going to damage anything :/

I use diesel service bioclean algecide and lucas upper cylinder lubricant in my Cummins ISC. It should be OK for a Detroit. Experienced Detroit owners might have a favorite.

Ted

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by TJones

I use diesel service bioclean algecide and lucas upper cylinder lubricant in my Cummins ISC. It should be OK for a Detroit. Experienced Detroit owners might have a favorite.

Ted

Ted thanks so which of these 2 products does the winterizing and fights against the gelling problem?

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by TJones

I use diesel service bioclean algecide and lucas upper cylinder lubricant in my Cummins ISC. It should be OK for a Detroit. Experienced Detroit owners might have a favorite.

Ted

Originally Posted by Rawlings

Ted thanks so which of these 2 products does the winterizing and fights against the gelling problem?

Both. Well, in this case it's 2 additives formulated for specific purposes. Howes, Lucas, Power Service are 3 pretty well known brands, there are others that do the same thing. Myself, I just put whatever treatment in that is on sale (or whatever the company will pay for, if driving a company truck). Most bottles will have a guide on how much to use, but even if you add the whole bottle to a tank of fuel, it won't hurt anything (it will add more protection though).

[kjelenfy]

What is a battery maintainer? I live in Maine and usually take my battery out for the winter.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by kjelenfy

What is a battery maintainer? I live in Maine and usually take my battery out for the winter.

Often called a trickle-charger. Charges at a low power and better ones have fancy electronics to keep the batteries at the right level of charge. Some can be solar, others are plug-in.

[TJones]

I dont think either of the additives I put in are anti gel. I'm not planning on starting my bus at temperatures where the diesel would gel. Both Power Service and Lucas as well as Howes make anti gel additives. If your not planning starting your bus when the over night low temperatures are below 30 F I wouldn't worry about it.

Ted

[Mekanic]

Originally Posted by rawlings

...... 1 i plan on turning it on at least once a week and running the engine. My father mentioned we need to have something warm the engine and under the bus before turning the bus on. i can't seem to find anything on amazon it's all like 12 volt heaters and some small block heaters for smaller vehicles. What would the correct term for this be? I guess we are worried about the oil pan being too cold, and any fluids needed to turn the bus on, along with the diesel fuel being too cold. I think the diesel in it now is a blend b15 i believe and some diesel #2. The tank is about half full (80 gallon tank) i heard diesel starts to jelly up when it's cold out, should we fill up the tank, or is it okay to leave half full? 2 if someone can give me an insight as to how to keep our bus, engine, transmission healthy during the cold months i would really appreciate it.

Originally Posted by rawlings

........ I planned on driving her maybe twice between november and march just to make sure everything is okay. So after reading your comment3 i'm guessing a block heater heats the coolant and oil while a pan heater just heard the pan which has the oil in it?

1 Nearly all diesels that were made more than 15 years ago are going to smoke slightly on a cold start (cold start being engine Temp not under 150'F) The black smoke you see is soot and soot is not really any good for a engine. For this reason
Many company that make engines will tell you Do NOT start and warm up a diesel engine. If you must start it and drive it. the faster it gets to operating temps the better. The best thing to do is to check the coolant But Cold starts are NOT helpful to longevity.
I have a 5.9L 1994 model diesel in my Truck conversion motorhome.
I drive it every year in July. It was parked in my yard aug 5th this year. I'll change the oil next spring and start it ONCE next mid june for a check out and start it again a week later before I go again.

2 the batt charger is a good idea I use a 2 amp auto floating charger for mine, it seems to work quite well.

3 block heaters are required on some engines when the temps get under 40'F
above that most don't require it.
Block heaters heat the coolant and won't heat the oil. think of it this way the oil is at the bottom of the pan. The coolant isn't even in the bottom of the block only the top half of the block and the head(s) are cooled by the coolant.
The oil does more to cool the crank and bearings than the coolant does.

One more thing you might have a hard time finding a freeze plug location to install a block heater. Your engine is a 2 stroke diesel and it has a very different block that most 4 cycles diesels. You might have to use a "block heater" that installs in a coolant hose. and the heat circulates the coolant.

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by TJones

I dont think either of the additives I put in are anti gel. I'm not planning on starting my bus at temperatures where the diesel would gel. Both Power Service and Lucas as well as Howes make anti gel additives. If your not planning starting your bus when the over night low temperatures are below 30 F I wouldn't worry about it.

Ted

So I turned her on yesterday the temperatures got up to about 48 degrees. She turned on right away, didn't even struggle. The days before temperatures were in the low 30s
in the day and low 20s at night. I plugged the batteries up to 2 individual 3.1 amp chargers the night before. I took her to Loves Truck stop and filled her up as others here said to keep the tank full during the winter. I asked the people there and they said the diesel is already winterized so I didn't buy additives they had there cause I want to make sure any of these additives are okay for a 2 stroke Detroit 671 engine. I'm guessing they are but if I could get feedback here I would appreciate it, and if the diesel is already winterized as they claim would I still need additives? I tried looking online but couldn't find much.

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by Mekanic

1 Nearly all diesels that were made more than 15 years ago are going to smoke slightly on a cold start (cold start being engine Temp not under 150'F) The black smoke you see is soot and soot is not really any good for a engine. For this reason
Many company that make engines will tell you Do NOT start and warm up a diesel engine. If you must start it and drive it. the faster it gets to operating temps the better. The best thing to do is to check the coolant But Cold starts are NOT helpful to longevity.
I have a 5.9L 1994 model diesel in my Truck conversion motorhome.
I drive it every year in July. It was parked in my yard aug 5th this year. I'll change the oil next spring and start it ONCE next mid june for a check out and start it again a week later before I go again.

2 the batt charger is a good idea I use a 2 amp auto floating charger for mine, it seems to work quite well.

3 block heaters are required on some engines when the temps get under 40'F
above that most don't require it.
Block heaters heat the coolant and won't heat the oil. think of it this way the oil is at the bottom of the pan. The coolant isn't even in the bottom of the block only the top half of the block and the head(s) are cooled by the coolant.
The oil does more to cool the crank and bearings than the coolant does.

One more thing you might have a hard time finding a freeze plug location to install a block heater. Your engine is a 2 stroke diesel and it has a very different block that most 4 cycles diesels. You might have to use a "block heater" that installs in a coolant hose. and the heat circulates the coolant.

So I don't ever plan on turning her on or driving her all winter long and if I do for some reason I wouldn't unless the temperature is above 45 degrees. I turned her on yesterday it was 48 degrees and she turned right on, no problem, drove her for about 40 minutes and filled her up with fresh diesel. It took about 40 minutes to get her temperature up to almost 180 (she usually cruises at 180-190 degrees)

Would I still need additives or these heaters? Ive read getting a pan heater, a block heater and some people have even told me to get one of those portable gas forced air heaters mechanics use to work outside and just point it towards the bus engine area for a good while. (Is that even safe, would it actually heat the insides and coolant etc, I saw these heaters for like 100 bucks in home Depot).

[Gdog 5651]

Originally Posted by Rawlings

So I don't ever plan on turning her on or driving her all winter long and if I do for some reason I wouldn't unless the temperature is above 45 degrees. I turned her on yesterday it was 48 degrees and she turned right on, no problem, drove her for about 40 minutes and filled her up with fresh diesel. It took about 40 minutes to get her temperature up to almost 180 (she usually cruises at 180-190 degrees)

Would I still need additives or these heaters? Ive read getting a pan heater, a block heater and some people have even told me to get one of those portable gas forced air heaters mechanics use to work outside and just point it towards the bus engine area for a good while. (Is that even safe, would it actually heat the insides and coolant etc, I saw these heaters for like 100 bucks in home Depot).

As I said earlier with good quality diesel you would be buying "Winter Fuel" winter fuel is treated to the local which it is sold in and the large surrounding area if you are not starting your Crown you don't need additive in your fuel I took care of all the trucks and equipment at a very large company a little outside of St.Louis for about 10 years. In that time the loaders and forklifts used untreated "Ag Fuel" the units that we were not going use got no fuel treatment at all none of those units had any fuel related problems when fired in the spring there were plenty of times in that period when it got cold enough for fuel to gel and when it got warmer the fuel ungelled and just became fuel again.Unless for your personal peace of mind as long as you are not starting the bus without driving it to full temp I would not "extra" treat the fuel. Supplemental heat is not needed unless you are planning on working on the bus and could be detrimental as heating and cooling things is known to cause condensation. Gene

[BlackJohn]

These winter fuel additives are good insurance as far as protecting your fuel lines from rusting out from the inside out and also protect the various boost pumps,primers,and mainly the costly IP which is full of check valves, o-rings and such. They are complex pumps thus why they cost so much to replace.

This is less costly than the alternatives and is used by most all diesel rigs running in colder weather. They don't harm anything and give you peace of mind because where you buy your fuel can be questionable at the best of times, with water contamination etc. Fuel up only where they sell a lot of fuel, not likely your neighbourhood gas bar.


John

[Gdog 5651]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

These winter fuel additives are good insurance as far as protecting your fuel lines from rusting out from the inside out and also protect the various boost pumps,primers,and mainly the costly IP which is full of check valves, o-rings and such. They are complex pumps thus why they cost so much to replace.

This is less costly than the alternatives and is used by most all diesel rigs running in colder weather. They don't harm anything and give you peace of mind because where you buy your fuel can be questionable at the best of times, with water contamination etc. Fuel up only where they sell a lot of fuel, not likely your neighbourhood gas bar.


John

Largest companies in the transportation business use Winter Fuel and nothing else, if it was beneficial to add something they would as fuel additive would be cheap insurance against failure if they thought it would be of benefit.In my 45+years in the repair/fleet management business I found most of my customers/employers found fuel additives unneeded as long as they were running winter fuel although some used Powerservice in the transition period between summer and winter fuel.

[Gdog 5651]

You are right though, where you buy your fuel and the volume they move is important Loves however moves huge amounts of fuel and has a good additive package as do most of the truck stops and larger diesel suppliers. Gene

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by Gdog 5651

Largest companies in the transportation business use Winter Fuel and nothing else, if it was beneficial to add something they would as fuel additive would be cheap insurance against failure if they thought it would be of benefit.In my 45+years in the repair/fleet management business I found most of my customers/employers found fuel additives unneeded as long as they were running winter fuel although some used Powerservice in the transition period between summer and winter fuel.

Up here and most of Canada gets cold. How cold?
I was at a service centre in February about 2 hours east of Quebec City.
Nobody could get diesel at the pumps because the pumps gelled. It was -68F with windchill and that is deadly. That is why I do not take chances on something so easily preventable.
To a point I agree with you on winter fuel as long as your engine is running daily and for extended hours.

John

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by Gdog 5651

Largest companies in the transportation business use Winter Fuel and nothing else, if it was beneficial to add something they would as fuel additive would be cheap insurance against failure if they thought it would be of benefit.In my 45+years in the repair/fleet management business I found most of my customers/employers found fuel additives unneeded as long as they were running winter fuel although some used Powerservice in the transition period between summer and winter fuel.

I appreciate both your inputs. I don't plan on turning her on at all during the winter as I have been reading this can be worse unless I'm really going to drive her for several hours. I just wanted to know what was safe for storing. I guess there's no right or wrong answer. I'm very cautious with this engine since it's a Det671 and they can be problematic like running away etc. To answer where I get my fuel, I get it from Love Truck Stop, they are very busy and I asked one of the guys that brings in the diesel he told me they come to fill up pretty much once or twice a week because it's a busy truck stop so the fuel is pretty fresh. He did recommend me going to straight diesel #2 fuel which is on the regular car side since the semi truck lanes have diesel B12 ...he said he didn't necessarily recommend biofuels for my engine but he wasn't an expert. I asked several people online and they said it was fine but bio fuel would clean out my engine and lines quicker which would mean I probably just need to change the oil filters more frequently and possibly the older lines as they may not be as compatible with these biofuels. All of the fuel in that truck stop is already winterized from what they told me. So I'm sort of in a little dilema, do I still add additive or do I trust it's winterized enough...but I'm not going to turn her on at all either .. haha I'm mostly worried about turning her on in the spring and her not coming to life. I've never had such a big beast and it's a little scary to think of all the risks.

[BlackJohn]

I hear your concerns and don't think you will have any trouble when Spring comes to fire that big guy up, with what your plans are.
On the other hand you are gambling with a very expensive engine. The preservation of the fuel supply is critical. No idea what an Injection pump is worth for that to rebuild or replace, do you?
Fuel lines not that expensive to change but a pain if you could have prevented it.
I would definitely not run bio-diesel in that so stick with winter fuel. All fuels breakdown somewhat when sitting so when you get it running again, run all,that fuel out and refill. Winter diesel only helps if you are winter driving and may still give you moisture problems in various components. it is not antifreeze so if things freeze they can break or create leaks.



John

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Just from the tone of your questions regarding block heaters I would recommend a pro once again. Someone who knows that engine. You may already have one installed but have you looked?

The heater goes into a hole where a frost plug is now, an accessible one at that. Likely your antifreeze will have to be drained to do this properly and then refilled. Are you sure you know how to do that?
You would do well to start reading these threads heavily if you intend to remain a happy bus owner.
Those members here that own a bus with your engine etc are and can be more than helpful but you have to gain some more understanding on your own. All your questions haave been covered here umpteen times if you care to research.


John

So I included a screenshot of what that Loves Truck stop advertises for their diesel. It says Diesel B12. Which I'm guessing is some sort of blend. They told me there the day I went to fill up that it is winterized starting from first week of November. So does that classify as winter fuel you are talking about? Detroit's 671 are great engines but they have their troubles from what I have been learning. This one was partially rebuilt. They rebuilt the heads as they apparently had cracked. It runs like a champ we drove her from California when we bought her, drove her to Tennessee, to Lake of the Ozarks this summer and we haven't had any problems, she cruises at 180-190 degrees. She does drop a tiny amount of oil when we park her after driving but takes about 1 gallon of oil every 1,000 miles I noticed this on our California trip.

[BlackJohn]

"So does that classify as winter fuel you are talking about?"


It is not what I am familiar with. Bio contains veg and or other products and blended with reg petroleum diesel. That would be a 12% blend. What I have been reading is that 20% bio is what is mostly being sold around the continent.

Performance isn't much different from reg diesel but it can make rubber fuel lines swell and or break. I guess that is something else to watch for with it.
My understanding of winter diesel otherwise is that it is blended with regular gasoline. Not sure of the proportions but lowers the cetane rating for easier starts and more efficient combustion.
Glad to hear your bus ran like a tramp in your travels. I am not sure many people on here would have the faith or confidence to purchase such a beast as you have.


Best of luck with it


John

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

"So does that classify as winter fuel you are talking about?"


It is not what I am familiar with. Bio contains veg and or other products and blended with reg petroleum diesel. That would be a 12% blend. What I have been reading is that 20% bio is what is mostly being sold around the continent.

Performance isn't much different from reg diesel but it can make rubber fuel lines swell and or break. I guess that is something else to watch for with it.
My understanding of winter diesel otherwise is that it is blended with regular gasoline. Not sure of the proportions but lowers the cetane rating for easier starts and more efficient combustion.
Glad to hear your bus ran like a tramp in your travels. I am not sure many people on here would have the faith or confidence to purchase such a beast as you have.


Best of luck with it


John

Thank you John. According to Wikipedia haha which idk how reliable that is.

"Retail stores offer a number of additives that will lower the CFPP of diesel oil. These will only be effective when added above the Cloud Point as the additive needs to mix well with the diesel oil - ideally the additive should be added at the gas station when the fuel is still warm from the storage tanks.

The additives will not prevent the diesel from developing wax particles but these are hindered from melding together to form larger wax flakes that can clog up the fuel filter. In comparison with blending diesel fuel with lighter fuel (that has a lower CFPP) the usage of additives is cheaper and gas stations in cold regions offer diesel fuel with additives at no extra cost (see below). If the gas station offers winterized diesel you should not add additional additives - the fluid characteristics may deteriorate due to incompatible additives and the CFPP enhancement may be reversed.[4]

Blending Edit
In North America, gas stations offer two types of diesel fuel - according to ASTM D975[5] these are named No.1 and No.2 fuel. No.1 fuel (kerosene) has a natural CFPP of -40 °C but it is more expensive than No.2 fuel. Adding No.1 fuel will lower the CFPP of No.2 fuel - adding 10% will lower the CFPP temperature by about 5 degrees.[6]

For some diesel motors it is also possible to add even lighter fuels like gasoline to extend the CFPP characteristics. Some car makers were recommending adding up to 20% gasoline to permit operation in cold weather (at the price of higher consumption) and it had been common practice in Europe where No.1 fuel is not offered at gas stations. Since the 1990s car makers began selling only direct injection diesel engines - these will not withstand any gasoline portions in the fuel as the high pressure in the injection device will not withstand any loss of lubrication from fuel oil without doing damage to the injectors." For anyone else that may need information.