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Old 11-26-2018, 10:16 AM   #41
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,760
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
the rockies are tough for all vehicles.. I remember as a kid in gramdma's bramnd new pontiac, (she always bought the biggest engine she could). we were heading up the mountains, following dad in his 392 4 speed scout.. that brand new car boiled out its tranny fluid.. back in those days. it was a 3 sopeed hydromatic with no lockup...



its definitely good and quite acceptable to stop and cool off.. when i brought the superior back from oregon. i stopped quite a few times to cool down the AT540..



the one thing to note in all these cases in this thread is that everyone made it across.. in a myriad of different busses all the posts state that their bus didnt just stop from lack of power up the hill... you may have been slow but made it..



Roger;s green skoolie is a fine running machine.. when I hooked the computer to it earlier this year its numbers came back as good as ive ever seen on a used school bus..



-Christopher

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Old 11-26-2018, 03:00 PM   #42
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Walkerton Ontario
Posts: 10
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: international 3800
Engine: international T444E
Rated Cap: 60 passenger
ECM reflash

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
that is correct, you need different software than just the free version of Servicemaxx to change the protected parameters like EFRC and HP rating.



im more than happy to reflash anyone's ECM if we can end up in the same physical location at the same time.



-Christopher
Thank you Christopher for your input and quick response.

I am not familiar with the acronym EFRC, please fill me in on this parameter and if I should or would want to change it.

I sincerely would like to meet up with you and others interested in reflash the ECM some time at your convenience.

I am located in Walkerton Ontario Canada, and it looks as if I am 387 miles or 6.5 hrs. from you in Columbus Ohio.
Please let me know if a meeting is possible , hopefully somewhere in the middle.

Christopher is it possible to mail you my 2002 3800 T444E ECM for reflash ?

Thanks again

David
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:14 PM   #43
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,760
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I dont have a bench harness set up for the ECMs.. I never thought about it I probably could build one and bench flash... although with most of the sensors missing the ECM would have lots of stored error codes when you plugged it back in..



the EFRC. is the Engine Family Rating Code.. Navistar had various "families" of engines.. each family was related to Torque, Horsepower, engine type, and emissions certification.. for instance the power curves on the california engines were different than the 49 state.. later on they got 50 state certs so you can run a 50 state calibration code..



the same ECM part numbers were used on several different engines.. believe it or not the T-444E and DT-466E used some of the same ECM's.. bit with the EFRC code changed it knew whether the engine was a V-8 or an I-6. the High Torque versions of these engines ran with different ignition timing and fuel curves than the Low torque counterparts.. the hardware was also different... on a 444E, the differences between the Low torque 175,190,210. version and the the HO 210,230,250 versions are the turbo and up-pipes... consequently the Truck / bus was slightly different too in that it required the bigger cooling system vs the split radiator / CAC..



changing the horsepower within a family is easy and safe.. so if someone has a 175 and wants a 210, i just type 210 in, save, reboot the ECM and go.. I can also NavKal the ECM for any service campaigns on its software.. basically that checks to make sure it has the latest firmware.. on mine i had an issue with the engine "surging" when you first started it in 15f or below weather.. it would run but was going "ruuuh.."ruhhhh".."ruhhh".. for about the first 3-5 minutes.. there was a software fix for this and it doesnt do it anymore..



changing a Family code means that we are now into uncharted territory unless you also change the hardware to match... these Diesel controllers are non-feedback controllers.. there are no knock sensors, EGT sensors, or O2 sensors.. there is a boost sensor. and the feedback from the ICP.. but ultimately it expects the hardware to be what the engineers Spec'd.. the EFRC codes show there was a 444E with 330 HP and 1000 ft lbs of torque built for marine applications... im guessing if you entered that code into a normal 444E it would probably fly apart in pieces.. but the computer would try to fuel it!!
-Christopher
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Old 11-26-2018, 08:03 PM   #44
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Walkerton Ontario
Posts: 10
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: international 3800
Engine: international T444E
Rated Cap: 60 passenger
Thank you again Christopher for your wealth of information.
I purchased the bus from the school bus yard, a salesman had a way of transferring the title as a motor home with my spare non-commercial plates and I was lucky to get a temporary 15 day registration without proof of insurance, so I could drive the bus home 1 hour away.
The drive home is when I notice the lack of power difference from both my 1995 Ford E350 7.3 PSD club wagon and my Ford 1999 7.3 PSD cube van and this bus. (Lots more steel and detuned to 175 hp as stated on the valve cover of the bus.
I have no idea what my EFRC for this bus is but did notice that the valve cover decal had 3 hp ratings mine being punched out at 175 and there was 195 and 210 available. Was hopping I could do some PSD mods like bigger single shot injectors, maybe bigger turbo, better cooling, a chip and gauges to monitor vital signs. But found out that no one chips bus as they have a different program (International) than ford products.
I am assuming that 210 hp would be safe and reliable and help getting around better ( have Allison 2000 trans) (assume it is a 5 speed)
Insurance is another issue as I heard it is getting harder to find.
All that has been done to this bus is that most seats are removed, and now it used as mobile storage on my property.
Please let me know of what my options are if any ?
Thank you
David
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Old 11-27-2018, 06:36 AM   #45
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,760
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Thank you again Christopher for your wealth of information.
I purchased the bus from the school bus yard, a salesman had a way of transferring the title as a motor home with my spare non-commercial plates and I was lucky to get a temporary 15 day registration without proof of insurance, so I could drive the bus home 1 hour away.
The drive home is when I notice the lack of power difference from both my 1995 Ford E350 7.3 PSD club wagon and my Ford 1999 7.3 PSD cube van and this bus. (Lots more steel and detuned to 175 hp as stated on the valve cover of the bus.
I have no idea what my EFRC for this bus is but did notice that the valve cover decal had 3 hp ratings mine being punched out at 175 and there was 195 and 210 available. Was hopping I could do some PSD mods like bigger single shot injectors, maybe bigger turbo, better cooling, a chip and gauges to monitor vital signs. But found out that no one chips bus as they have a different program (International) than ford products.
I am assuming that 210 hp would be safe and reliable and help getting around better ( have Allison 2000 trans) (assume it is a 5 speed)
Insurance is another issue as I heard it is getting harder to find.
All that has been done to this bus is that most seats are removed, and now it used as mobile storage on my property.
Please let me know of what my options are if any ?
Thank you
David



power adding to a T-444E.. we should probably start off a new thread for this..



mind you im relatively new at power-adding to my 444E.. I spent the most time working on ways to reprogram the computer.. turns out that part wasnt too difficult.. 1997 technology in the ECM essentially.. without going into details every parameter is editable..



OK so if you are going to power add be mindful.. while these are similar to the PSD 7.3, the hardware is a bit different.



1. the CAM is different.. we have a mechanical fuel pump and a cam lobe for it as well as a profile gesared more towards Low end torque.



2. we have a thinner headgasket.. better compression at lower RPM.. and a lower max RPM.. the PSD's spin at well over 3000 RPM.. our max redline is 2600-2700 RPM


3. Turbo chargers.. the turbo on the standard torque 444E is non wastegated.. on most variants 99.5+ it is a GTP38 based turbo so it is similar to the PSD.. the Vans had a different turbo from the trucks. . I havent figured that part out yet. but ford part numbers are tough to cross to International part numbers..



navistar spared no parts-counter confusion with their part numbers.. here is a matrix with various turbos used in the 444E..

https://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/94...t444eparts.htm


the 230,250 versions are the High torque versions of the engine.. notice that some had GT-37 turbos as OEM.. but then were updated part numbers (new part number). with GTP38 based turbos..



so now thats out of the way lets talk getting some ft lbs..



a. install an EGT gauge.. before you turn a screw or program anything get your pyro in.. just like the fords, you want to probe it in the driver side exhaust manifold.. on a conventional school bus.. its super easy to get underneath with a facemask on and drill upwards into the manifold from the bottom about halfway between the last cylinder and the up-pipe flange.. its a little tight with a T-handle tap handle. but I was able to get 1/4 turns and remove my tap handle to rotate.. after I drilled, i shop vac'd the hole.. and did the same after I tapped.. 99% of the shavings are going into your face and not in the manifold.. I dry-tapped, iron is pretty soft.. ran my 1/8" NPT tap about 3/4 way in.. dont shank it.. you just need enough that your probe fitting screws in about 4 turns or so..



b. you surely can scan and read the computer.. there are 2 Data-links in our engines.. under the dash is a J1708 connector (the later ones have 1939).. you can read such things as oil pressure, HPOP, speed, RPM, oil temp, wster temp. injector pulse, engine load, throttle, and many more if you want to write your own software to send requests down the databus.. Navistar has 100 or so parameters...



the other link is the J1939 link between your engine and trans.. it is a databus so you can insert as a node between and read the data going between the engine and trans.. you can also request PGN's directly and the ECM / TCM do respond...



out of the box a SilverLeaf VMSPC can give you *some* of the parameters.. a current generation USB-link2 (which you use with navistar software for programming the ECM). can talk to a phone app called BlueFire. which is a decent out of the box solution.





OK so back to turbo chargers for a minute.. our Turbos as mentioned are a GTP38 based turbo.. non wastegated.. the high torque variants of the engine. appear to use these in a wastegated form.. which is what ford used on the PSD.. im not sure why it seems the GT-37 was not continued as its a much bigger turbo.. through 97 the GT-37 was used in the HO versions of the 444E and the standard GTP38 in the regular versions.. my dilemma is do I buy the replacement HO part a gated GTP38 or the GT-37?

the poedestals are different.. as are the up-pipes..



so ive been talking to the fine folks at BK diesel and we came to the conclusion that running up to 250 HP this turbo is sufficient.. it is a GTP38 based turbo with a wastegate. (the picture isnt the real deal.. you can see the navistar and garrett part numbers at the bottom of the page..



https://www.bkdiesel.com/shop/turbo-793/


the advantage of this turbo is that its pretty easy to do a wheel upgrade if you decide you need more boost at low RPM. the GT-37 is more obscure..

other advantage is it should fit the same pedestal and up-pipes you have now.



your in a northern climate.. if your bus has an EBPV.. delete it.. in fact its easy... you just need to replace your turbo pedestal with a non. EBPV version.. the 444E was sold with and without EBPV.. im lucky mine was a texas bus it was bought without it..



Injectors.. dont install AC injectors with a computer program meant for AD.. split shot injectors from what I understand run with a slightly advanced timing for start-of-shot vs single shot.. I have a set of stage 1 (15%) AD (plus 1 AE) injectors to install.. these are still split shot but should flow more..


exhaust.. Joihnny mullet deleted his stock muffler and went straight pipe.. in his 190HP version it woke it up.. noting how quiet these engines are at the tail pipe it makes sense the muffler is restrictive.. I'll be doing the same.. (its nsowing and 25 so Ill do the delete when im in fliorida) my guess is the better exhaust flow increases the pressure differential across the turbine of the turbo..



the computer.. getting to 250HP is easy without voodoo.. we can reprogram the ECM to be a HO engine family and 250HP easily.. trying to go above might get to be incredibly tough.. and the actual net with bigger injectors and a turbo upgrade might be more.. no way to tell without a dyno run. 250 is a good safe number to shoot for.. if you want more this is the wrong engine control system to have. but in my book going from 175 up to 250 will be noticeable.. and again biggerturbo wheel and bigger injectors will likely net you more by a bit..


now the Allison Nemesis..



the allison 2000 is a great transmission.. however the allison / navistar shift schedule is not ideal.. they shift you to the highest gear as fast as possible.. this lugs the engine and runs up EGTs.. from what I can tell higher EGTs are cleaner burn for the EPA.. and the MPG is better at light throttle.. sincde I have a swapped in trans i have a programmable TCM.. and have my shift schedule adjusted up a bit to avoid this.. im using EFIlive and allison DOC / reflash to program my TCMs.. I dont have any of the older 5 speed TCMs to play with.. only thr 4th gem (06-09)


thats really it in a nutshell..



-Christopher
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:18 PM   #46
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Walkerton Ontario
Posts: 10
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: international 3800
Engine: international T444E
Rated Cap: 60 passenger
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
power adding to a T-444E.. we should probably start off a new thread for this..



mind you im relatively new at power-adding to my 444E.. I spent the most time working on ways to reprogram the computer.. turns out that part wasnt too difficult.. 1997 technology in the ECM essentially.. without going into details every parameter is editable..



OK so if you are going to power add be mindful.. while these are similar to the PSD 7.3, the hardware is a bit different.



1. the CAM is different.. we have a mechanical fuel pump and a cam lobe for it as well as a profile gesared more towards Low end torque.



2. we have a thinner headgasket.. better compression at lower RPM.. and a lower max RPM.. the PSD's spin at well over 3000 RPM.. our max redline is 2600-2700 RPM


3. Turbo chargers.. the turbo on the standard torque 444E is non wastegated.. on most variants 99.5+ it is a GTP38 based turbo so it is similar to the PSD.. the Vans had a different turbo from the trucks. . I havent figured that part out yet. but ford part numbers are tough to cross to International part numbers..



navistar spared no parts-counter confusion with their part numbers.. here is a matrix with various turbos used in the 444E..

https://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/94...t444eparts.htm


the 230,250 versions are the High torque versions of the engine.. notice that some had GT-37 turbos as OEM.. but then were updated part numbers (new part number). with GTP38 based turbos..



so now thats out of the way lets talk getting some ft lbs..



a. install an EGT gauge.. before you turn a screw or program anything get your pyro in.. just like the fords, you want to probe it in the driver side exhaust manifold.. on a conventional school bus.. its super easy to get underneath with a facemask on and drill upwards into the manifold from the bottom about halfway between the last cylinder and the up-pipe flange.. its a little tight with a T-handle tap handle. but I was able to get 1/4 turns and remove my tap handle to rotate.. after I drilled, i shop vac'd the hole.. and did the same after I tapped.. 99% of the shavings are going into your face and not in the manifold.. I dry-tapped, iron is pretty soft.. ran my 1/8" NPT tap about 3/4 way in.. dont shank it.. you just need enough that your probe fitting screws in about 4 turns or so..



b. you surely can scan and read the computer.. there are 2 Data-links in our engines.. under the dash is a J1708 connector (the later ones have 1939).. you can read such things as oil pressure, HPOP, speed, RPM, oil temp, wster temp. injector pulse, engine load, throttle, and many more if you want to write your own software to send requests down the databus.. Navistar has 100 or so parameters...



the other link is the J1939 link between your engine and trans.. it is a databus so you can insert as a node between and read the data going between the engine and trans.. you can also request PGN's directly and the ECM / TCM do respond...



out of the box a SilverLeaf VMSPC can give you *some* of the parameters.. a current generation USB-link2 (which you use with navistar software for programming the ECM). can talk to a phone app called BlueFire. which is a decent out of the box solution.





OK so back to turbo chargers for a minute.. our Turbos as mentioned are a GTP38 based turbo.. non wastegated.. the high torque variants of the engine. appear to use these in a wastegated form.. which is what ford used on the PSD.. im not sure why it seems the GT-37 was not continued as its a much bigger turbo.. through 97 the GT-37 was used in the HO versions of the 444E and the standard GTP38 in the regular versions.. my dilemma is do I buy the replacement HO part a gated GTP38 or the GT-37?

the poedestals are different.. as are the up-pipes..



so ive been talking to the fine folks at BK diesel and we came to the conclusion that running up to 250 HP this turbo is sufficient.. it is a GTP38 based turbo with a wastegate. (the picture isnt the real deal.. you can see the navistar and garrett part numbers at the bottom of the page..



https://www.bkdiesel.com/shop/turbo-793/


the advantage of this turbo is that its pretty easy to do a wheel upgrade if you decide you need more boost at low RPM. the GT-37 is more obscure..

other advantage is it should fit the same pedestal and up-pipes you have now.



your in a northern climate.. if your bus has an EBPV.. delete it.. in fact its easy... you just need to replace your turbo pedestal with a non. EBPV version.. the 444E was sold with and without EBPV.. im lucky mine was a texas bus it was bought without it..



Injectors.. dont install AC injectors with a computer program meant for AD.. split shot injectors from what I understand run with a slightly advanced timing for start-of-shot vs single shot.. I have a set of stage 1 (15%) AD (plus 1 AE) injectors to install.. these are still split shot but should flow more..


exhaust.. Joihnny mullet deleted his stock muffler and went straight pipe.. in his 190HP version it woke it up.. noting how quiet these engines are at the tail pipe it makes sense the muffler is restrictive.. I'll be doing the same.. (its nsowing and 25 so Ill do the delete when im in fliorida) my guess is the better exhaust flow increases the pressure differential across the turbine of the turbo..



the computer.. getting to 250HP is easy without voodoo.. we can reprogram the ECM to be a HO engine family and 250HP easily.. trying to go above might get to be incredibly tough.. and the actual net with bigger injectors and a turbo upgrade might be more.. no way to tell without a dyno run. 250 is a good safe number to shoot for.. if you want more this is the wrong engine control system to have. but in my book going from 175 up to 250 will be noticeable.. and again biggerturbo wheel and bigger injectors will likely net you more by a bit..


now the Allison Nemesis..



the allison 2000 is a great transmission.. however the allison / navistar shift schedule is not ideal.. they shift you to the highest gear as fast as possible.. this lugs the engine and runs up EGTs.. from what I can tell higher EGTs are cleaner burn for the EPA.. and the MPG is better at light throttle.. sincde I have a swapped in trans i have a programmable TCM.. and have my shift schedule adjusted up a bit to avoid this.. im using EFIlive and allison DOC / reflash to program my TCMs.. I dont have any of the older 5 speed TCMs to play with.. only thr 4th gem (06-09)


thats really it in a nutshell..



-Christopher
Thank you Christopher for you time and knowledge.

Please keep my bus in mind when it comes to possibly reflashing the ECM.

David
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:43 PM   #47
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,760
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
David I’ll program your computer any time you like. We just have to figure out a way to be the same place at the same time
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Old 03-12-2021, 07:03 AM   #48
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Ocean Springs MS
Posts: 6
Year: 1995
Coachwork: International
Chassis: Bluebird
Engine: 3800 T444e
Hello! I have a ‘95 bluebird navistar 3800 T444e Alison transmission (not the good number, can’t remember) 8 row handibus. Not sure what else. The problem is the governor at 55mph. I have a mechanic who services the county busses here in Ocean Springs MS, but he could not locate where to plug in the computer to reprogram. Is it difficult to find? Or do I just need a new mechanic?
Thanks
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Old 03-12-2021, 07:40 AM   #49
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Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,764
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanda bus View Post
Hello! I have a ‘95 bluebird navistar 3800 T444e Alison transmission (not the good number, can’t remember) 8 row handibus. Not sure what else. The problem is the governor at 55mph. I have a mechanic who services the county busses here in Ocean Springs MS, but he could not locate where to plug in the computer to reprogram. Is it difficult to find? Or do I just need a new mechanic?
Thanks
The plug is on the right side of the dash area. Either behind a plastic panel or dangling under the dash in that general area.
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Old 03-12-2021, 07:41 AM   #50
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,760
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
if he cant find the connector then he iosnt much of a mechanic.. it should be under the dash near the steering column on a 3800. its possible the bracket broke off and someone moved it stuff it up in but its a gray round 6 pin connector on the pre 99 units..
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