Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-22-2019, 02:11 PM   #1
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 415
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
How difficult to replace T444e with DT466e (IC 3800)?

Greetings! We're planning our first bus purchase, and our 'must-haves' are a dog-nosed pre-2004 between 8-10 windows in length (~ 19-23' interior space). A 'must have' for me was also a DT466/466e, but those are kinda hard to come by. If we were to purchase a T444e-equipped bus (international 3800 build), would an engine swap to a DT466 be pretty straight forward? I'm thinking that since the 3800 came in versions sporting either engine (and others), it should be easy (relatively speaking), but I'm not sure how the wiring / electronics (or other factors I may not be aware of) might complicate the issue. Or, would it be better to just wait on finding a 446? Which brings up question #2... does bus size dictate the power-plant variation? Are 446-equipped 8-10 window busses hard to find because they don't put 446s in the 'smaller' busses?
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 02:21 PM   #2
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 18,268
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus View Post
Greetings! We're planning our first bus purchase, and our 'must-haves' are a dog-nosed pre-2004 between 8-10 windows in length (~ 19-23' interior space). A 'must have' for me was also a DT466/466e, but those are kinda hard to come by. If we were to purchase a T444e-equipped bus (international 3800 build), would an engine swap to a DT466 be pretty straight forward? I'm thinking that since the 3800 came in versions sporting either engine (and others), it should be easy (relatively speaking), but I'm not sure how the wiring / electronics (or other factors I may not be aware of) might complicate the issue. Or, would it be better to just wait on finding a 446? Which brings up question #2... does bus size dictate the power-plant variation? Are 446-equipped 8-10 window busses hard to find because they don't put 446s in the 'smaller' busses?
There are plenty of 466 short and mid-length buses. You just gotta be patient and watch for em. Also consider the Cat 3126. Its a fine engine. I like mine.
__________________
.
Roll Your Own Build Thread
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 04:06 PM   #3
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 11,656
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
what ECCB says.. its a difficult swap on a mechanical bus(txstreetman replaced a 7.3 IDI with a DTA-360.. it was an intensive project involving cutting fabbing, etc and a donor vehicle for parts.. not just an engine..)..


an electronic one is even tougher.. 466E's are still real common on the auctions..
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 04:18 PM   #4
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,549
Year: 2001
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: IH
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 14
The DT466 is a longer engine than the T444, so firewall cutting may be in order.


Personally, if I was going to do an engine swap, why stop at a DT466? Why not get something bigger and heavier duty? An L10 Cummins? M11 or N14? 60-series Detroit? Get some serious road tractor horsepower, drop in some 3.53 (or close) gears and cruise on down the road.


One forum member (I forget who) had a fully converted rig tipping the scales around 36K and the DT466 was woefully underpowered; he was looking for more oomph.
Brad_SwiftFur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 04:44 PM   #5
Bus Crazy
 
Sleddgracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: south east BC, close to the Canadian/US border
Posts: 1,971
Chassis: still looking for my bus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur View Post
The DT466 is a longer engine than the T444, so firewall cutting may be in order.


Personally, if I was going to do an engine swap, why stop at a DT466? Why not get something bigger and heavier duty? An L10 Cummins? M11 or N14? 60-series Detroit? Get some serious road tractor horsepower, drop in some 3.53 (or close) gears and cruise on down the road.


One forum member (I forget who) had a fully converted rig tipping the scales around 36K and the DT466 was woefully underpowered; he was looking for more oomph.
I think it was this fellow
Sleddgracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 04:49 PM   #6
Bus Crazy
 
Sleddgracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: south east BC, close to the Canadian/US border
Posts: 1,971
Chassis: still looking for my bus
I think it was this fellow
Attached Images
File Type: png bus roof raise deck.png (971.1 KB, 10 views)
Sleddgracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 05:07 PM   #7
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 415
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
The reason I was considering the possibility of a DT466 engine swap, but not something bigger/better/etc, was because the International 3800 line of buses were apparently assembled with both T444 & DT466 powerplants (as well as others). I figured - perhaps incorrectly - that this being the case, a swap to another supported motor wouldn't be much more than sourcing new motor mounts, radiator/mounts, etc... a 'bolt-up' conversion... one not requiring fabrication. But that's why I'm asking. I admit I haven't a clue. It's good to hear that the DT466s aren't limited to larger buses! Our main goal is to have a solid, reliable power-plant that we can always find (reasonably priced) parts for, that's as user-serviceable as possible, and that won't destroy us financially when the time comes to rebuild/overhaul it. I'm not looking to up-power the bus. Just keep it running and running well for years to come. Sorry for the wall of text BTW... my paragraphs keep getting collapsed every time I post.
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 06:59 PM   #8
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 11,656
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
The 3800 is a series similar to saying ford has F series pickups.. they can in many different wheelbases engine configs(over the years), weight ratings etc.
Mechanically the 466 is heavier so you’d likely need another leaf up front. The 444e is a V8 and the 466e is I6 so you have to cut the firewall out and rework the floor plates. The frame holes are drilled for the mounts already.. the radiator/cac is different as is the piping. Exhaust is different. The 466 sits back further so you might need longer trans shift cable and shorten driveshaft. Different trans dipstick too.. I’m assuming you are replacing engine and trans together.. if not then making sure you have the right bits for the flexplate and such.

Now into the electronics. Many of the ECMs are same from 444e to 466e but the wiring harnesses are completely different. Computer program is completely different if your new engine didn’t have the computer. If it does then you still have program to match gearing for speedo to work. Then you have the bus wiring for alternator starter etc which is different location..

Not saying it can’t be done.. I swap all kinds of stuff but for an engine like this is sooner get another bus.. now if you are building something that really never existed. Ie big Detroit or big cat or even 530e in a conventional bus then it makes sense to do it as it’s a one off.. but 466e with nice transmissions are all over.. and you can reprogram the computer for more horsies
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 08:08 PM   #9
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 415
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
Thank you all so much for the info!

Cadillac, you either saved me some measure of regret, or a lot of work & $$. Probably the former because once I realized what I was in for we'd likely be sticking w/ the 444 (which I'm sure is a great engine, just not what we want).

We'll do our best to take your advice, EastCoast, and be patient. Or at least act in a patient manner (despite frothing at the bit) ;)

Cadillac, when you say nice transmissions, which ones are you referring to. From reading here I'm guessing the 643 is one, and the 545 is not. The wiki for the 3800 lists 2 other manuals as options for the series (a 4 & 5 speed). Any clue about them? Also, are there other options from other manufacturers out there that would pair a 'nice' tranny with the DT466 is the year/body style we're hoping for? Most of what I see from Bluebird or Thomas has cats in them (again, I'm sure they're nice, just not what we're hoping for).
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2019, 08:28 PM   #10
Bus Nut
 
Dog Rescuer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: On the Road
Posts: 577
Year: 2000
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: 7.3L 210HP Turbo Diesel T444E
Rated Cap: 28 + 3 wheel chairs.
I love my T444e engine. I have a 28' (8 window) dog nose - with the 7.3L 210HP V8 turbo diesel - and the Allison 2000 transmission - which has been very good to me (even with having to replace the compressor this week).
It has traveled from Florida to Montana to Virginia to Texas to Arizona and back to Montana.

It was originally a Georgia Bus (from Newton, GA) - and had 297,000 miles when it was retired. I have about 340,000 miles on it now. I generally cruise at 55 MPH - and average 10-14 MPG.

I have not seen any downfalls with this engine.

IMG_9179.JPG
__________________
- Roger (Dog.Rescuer)
Dog Rescuer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.