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Old 10-22-2016, 12:42 PM   #1
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Info wanted -- horizontal engines; converting to horizontal

Some of us old-timers are familiar with the classic "loaf of bread" Crown buses where the engine is located under the floor in the middle of the bus. These engines are "horizontal" -- that is, they are basically normal inline six-cylinder engines, but tipped over close to 90 degrees so they fit under the floor.

Such engines are also used in other vehicles, including railroad.

Cummins sells -- or used to sell -- these to England. So far, I know of the L10 and M11 engines.

Question 1: Are these engines also common here in the USA? They might perfectly well be -- in machinery that I never hear of.

Question 2: Can a vertical L10 or M11 -- or other engine -- be converted by swapping a few parts like oil pan and related pieces?
I suspect that oil drain-back could be an issue.

Any information and leads appreciated!

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Old 10-22-2016, 01:29 PM   #2
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seems theres a lot of things that would or could go wrong with trying to mod a veritcal engine to horizontal.. the oil pan.. oil levels and slosh as you round corners or stop? where does the oil go? valve covers? drafting and oil return.

will there be an issue with the pistons being sideways when design for vertical?

fuel flow after injection.. will the horizontal orientation cause injector starvation or fuel running down in the cylinder before burn?

the transmission?.. how will the mount to engine work with the trans and the bolt pattern?
-Christopher
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Old 10-22-2016, 02:14 PM   #3
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Yes, managing the entire cycle of oil circulation is probably the main issue.

I doubt the cylinders and the fuel therein know the difference; witness countless engines with horizontal cylinders such as VW/Porsche and Subaru, BMW and Honda motorcycles, and a bunch of aircraft engines such as Lycoming. There are even radial engines with cylinders up-side-down.

The transmission should be no problem at all, since bell-housings are circular, and there are not all that many degrees between the bolts. So... simply rotate to desired position -- or the closest thereto, which would surely be close enough. I doubt these engines are completely horizontal anyway -- my guess is they are a few degrees "up", for the aforementioned oil drain-back.
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Old 10-22-2016, 02:35 PM   #4
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Somewhat like the Mopar Slant Six?
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Old 10-22-2016, 03:22 PM   #5
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Yes, the L10 and M11 engines were commonly used in US trucks and surely some buses.

Not sure if one of the "vertical" engines can (easily) be mounted sideways. I'm thinking the block casting for the horizontal engine may be different, to account for the difference, though I'm sure the innards (and probably some of the outer pieces and head) are shared.
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Old 10-22-2016, 07:13 PM   #6
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Yes... I expressed myself poorly about the L10 and M11 engines.
They are indeed common truck engines here in the US. What I failed to say properly was... that Cummins has ALSO been building horizontal versions of these, and many of the horizontals went to England.

So my thinking is... that even if I cannot easily buy a horizontal engine in the US, maybe I can take a regular vertical engine and simply change out the oil pan, the oil pickup, and maybe a few other relatively inexpensive parts, and turn it into a horizontal?

Of course, I'm hoping to learn that some light rail line in a nearby state uses the horizontals, and is suddenly replacing the fleet, and I can buy a perfectly good horizontal engine for pennies on the dollar. (Hey, one never knows....)

The Chrysler Slant Six is one of the best gasoline engines ever made. Amazingly durable. But it slants only a small amount from vertical -- maybe 20 degrees or some such.
I'm told there are German inline gasoline engines -- BMW? Porsche 944? -- that also slant a bit.

Right. The big question is whether there are fundamental differences that would rule out converting a vertical to a horizontal.

I suppose I could start asking Cummins mechanics and parts-guys, but I'm thinking this is too far off the wall for many to have any experience with.

At any rate, I'm starting the investigation here.
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Old 10-22-2016, 07:19 PM   #7
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what does it gain you? the ability to put the drivetrain completely under the floor and have more interior space?
-Christopher
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Old 10-22-2016, 07:38 PM   #8
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The 6-71's mounted in Crowns were 90* from vertical--truly a horizontal engine.

The Cummins 743 small cam engines and the Cummins 855 big cam engines were mounted at 70* from vertical. When the small cam was discontinued and the big cam was adapted to fit Crown had to re-engineer the frame of the bus in order to fit the larger engine under the floor. You can tell very easily the newer buses because they have flat tops to their fenders and all of the older buses have round tops to their fenders.

Mounting the engine under the floor allows you to have big engines with big HP and torque. You can't really mount a big engine behind the rear axle--you end up with way too much weight that is unsupported way to far to the rear. The torque can bend a bus if you twist hard enough far enough back. You also are balancing the weight on the chassis. On FE buses you have a lot of weight way forward--it makes traction on slick surfaces very difficult. On RE buses you have a lot of weight to the rear--it makes steering inputs on slick surfaces very interesting due to the lack of traction the steering axle has to guide the bus around a corner.

The disadvantages are obvious--the only real space you can have a luggage compartment is behind the rear axle under the floor or at the rear of the bus.

As far as convertors are concerned, the advantage of a mid-mount engine is the size of the engine. With the ability to up the HP of a big cam Cummins to over 450 HP you can end up with a real rocketship.

Of course you are then very limited in your locations for things like tanks and plumbing.

As I have said before, there is no one bus that is best for all applications.

As for turning a vertical engine into a horizontal engine, it can be done given enough time and $$$. Personally, I wouldn't mess around with a little L10 or M11. I would look for a 350 BCI that is already a horizontal engine.
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Old 10-22-2016, 08:11 PM   #9
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Now we are making progress!

Yes, I was on the trail of an 855 a little while ago -- here on this forum, in fact. But not for sale at this time.

I need to look up what a 350 BCI is.

I'm perfectly willing to modify one frame rail. I could zig-zag it up into the body in the engine area. That would put the raised section under the couch, where it would do no harm at all.
Frames can perfectly well be bolted together. It just needs to be done correctly.

Yes, the idea is to get rid of the engine up front. It's a danged nuisance up there.
More power would be nice. It's not mandatory, but when climbing the Sierra Nevadas grossing 38,000 pounds....

I would install a manual transmission also.

Millicent has a "toy hauler" tailgate, so a rear-mounted engine is not on the table.

And yes... everything involves compromise. With ten years and 60,000 miles now on Millicent, I have a pretty good idea what I would like to change.
But on my budget, I would have to do it on the cheap. Luckily, I do have some skills.

Appreciate all information I can get!
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Old 10-22-2016, 08:16 PM   #10
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Elliot, why do you want to do this? Just wondering.

Yes, Cummins sells lots of their bigger QSX 750HP engines for underfloor mounting in trains in Britain, but I don't know about their smaller engines being sold there as pancakes. It's certainly possible to convert a Cummins or Detroit to or from horizontal mounting, and oilpans and oilpumps are the main difference - there's probably more than just those things, but the cognoscenti on the Crown Coach Junkies forum don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility as long as you can get the needed parts (and therein lies the rub). You mention trains here using underfloor engines - Budd RDCs had big Detroit 6-110 two-strokes, the big brother of the 6-71s used by Crown and Gillig.

If you want a beautiful unique coach with a pancake engine, a friend of mine is selling his Crown intercity bus with a 375HP big-cam Cummins - it's a seriously quick bus by any standards, and when he drove it back across the US he said it easily buried its speedo needle at the 80MPH mark. Want it?

Cowlitz mentions RE buses as being front-light. I wonder why there weren't more RE designs like the renowned Bristol RE which cleverly overcame those issues - it had underfloor Gardner or Leyland engines mounted immediately behind the rear axle, driving forward over the axle to a semi-automatic transmission ahead of the axle which then drove back to the axle. I heard they used a dropped-center axle from the VR double-decker. It seems complicated, but they had excellent handling in all weathers, and they even had a small trunk behind the engine. In England they are still regarded as some of the best RE buses ever made.

John
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Old 10-22-2016, 09:34 PM   #11
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That 80 MPH Crown is probably far too costly for me.
And I have a personal reason for sticking with Blue Bird -- and even sticking with Millicent.

The information about horizontal L10 and M11 engines being sold in England came from Wikipedia.

Why convert to mid-under-floor-engine?...
Why do I fool with an old bus in the first place...
Why do I participate in Kinetic Sculpture Racing...
Why do I organize a theme camp at Burning Man every year...?

Long term... I envision the ideal bus -- the ideal Millicent.

Raise the roof the rest of the way to 13' 6" or 14' -- probably this winter.

Lengthen the body 5' to the full legal 45'. This includes moving the rear axle rearward at least 5'.

Replace rear axle and suspension with air suspension while I'm at it.
Because...
The existing leaf springs are sagging.
Air ride gives much more comfortable ride. (I drove 18-wheelers for 27 years.)
And with air ride I can dump the air and lower the rear of the bus so the tailgate is less steep.

Convert to manual transmission before the Allison expires.

And as mentioned, get rid of the dog house, and the noise and heat up front. Passengers are constantly crowding up front -- sitting on the dog house, sitting on an ice chest.... And the entry door and foot well ought to be further back. Then we could have a "salon" up front for several people to enjoy the view forward and converse with the driver.

I am aware that a mid-engine installation could -- likely would -- entail unexpected delays for parts or whatnot. So the idea is to leave the original engine and transmission in place while the conversion is in progress. Then I could put the driveshafts back in and drive her, if need be. Wouldn't remove those until after the new engine is fully operational.

Yes, I'm a dreamer.
And some of my dreams come true! You should have heard the nay-sayers when I proposed to raise the roof.
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Old 10-22-2016, 09:58 PM   #12
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Another option is to change over the engine to a dry sump oil
system like they do in racing engines.
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Old 10-22-2016, 10:03 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Elliot Naess View Post
Raise the roof the rest of the way to 13' 6" or 14' -- probably this winter.
Cut it at 13 foot 6. That's the legal height limit in a lot of states (unless you have permits from the state). If you drove big rigs for 27 years you should already know this.

And if you have anything installed on the roof, make sure it also falls under that 13 foot 6 mark.

Don't want to see YOU at the 11 foot 8 bridge (or any other) picking your roof pieces up off the ground because you went too tall.
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Old 10-22-2016, 10:53 PM   #14
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Yes, I looked thru the height limits, and was surprised to see that many states still have 13' 6" on the books. That's why I mentioned it.

But California, Oregon, Washington and Nevada at all 14', and I seldom go further. Arizona is a possibility, and they are 13' 6", but I have a hunch from my trucking experience that they don't enforce it very vigorously.

But yeah.... She is less than 12' now, so going to 13' 6" would make a good difference. The main reason is to make more room for the upper bunks. We are banging our heads on them. And if I raise them now, there would be too little space up there to use the bunks comfortably.

With upper bunks safely above skull height, we could even put bunks crosswise, which would allow several more bunks. Crosswise bunks could even slide sideways (lengthwise in the bus), to mix and match single and double beds at a moments notice.
Yes, I have given this some thought.

As for scraping air-conditioners off the roof of RVs, YouTube is full of them. LOL

Since I mentioned the possibility of extending Millicent to 45' long....
While this is legal in California, it is legal only on specified roads. But that covers most roads, and the maps are online. California does require a special Driver License for over 40', but that I surely have covered.
I do need to investigate other states, but since "Elkhart, Indiana, Inc." builds 45-footers, it's probably OK.

Yes, this is a brainstorming weekend.
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:04 PM   #15
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Burning Man 2016.
38,300 pounds.
60+ bicycles on the roof -- all safely below 14'.

I don't ever want to carry that many bicycles again, but at least they should be inside.
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:05 PM   #16
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Well if you're only travelling in states where it's 14 feet then you won't have a problem.

As long as you're considering all the possibilities, that's all anyone can ask.

And yes the web is full of them.... I love that site 11foot8.com, never know what you're gonna find there.
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:17 PM   #17
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If I stretch Millicent to 45', I may have to shorten the trailer the same amount. Not sure yet. One more thing to research.

So... yeah, everything must be considered.
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Old 10-23-2016, 03:24 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
seems theres a lot of things that would or could go wrong with trying to mod a veritcal engine to horizontal.. the oil pan.. oil levels and slosh as you round corners or stop? where does the oil go? valve covers? drafting and oil return.

will there be an issue with the pistons being sideways when design for vertical?

fuel flow after injection.. will the horizontal orientation cause injector starvation or fuel running down in the cylinder before burn?

the transmission?.. how will the mount to engine work with the trans and the bolt pattern?
-Christopher
Lets not get crazy. I build Geo engines that are flat for aircraft to fit them in different cowlings. Its all pretty simple and being diesel it is even easier no carbs to deal with
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M...=0&w=198&h=163
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:07 AM   #19
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remember if you raised the bus to 14' that the only requirement for municpalities to Mark a bridge's height is if its under 13'6.. so your bus could be 14 and the bridge could be unmarked at 13'8....

-Christopher
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:48 AM   #20
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When I was looking at a Crown of unknown history I looked into service options for the DD 671 pancake. My Detroit Guru and the parts outfit I was talking to told me that if I needed a new engine that I could simply move the pancake specific parts(oil pan, oil pump & alternator) over from the existing motor to a new "vertical" 671 and it would play.

I do love the idea of a 6-110 intrigues me.... 6-110 Detroit Diesel RD6-110
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