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Old 11-05-2018, 05:42 PM   #1
Skoolie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Miami, Fl.
Posts: 113
Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E-Md3060
MD3060 - dead/dark shift panel

Hello all,

I am going thru a dead shift selector panel issue.
According to the dealer mechanic who has serviced this bus many times when it belonged to the school board he indicated the pink wire #124 tends to break open near the transmission.

Bus in question is a 99 Amtran RE.

I also found some great troubleshooting tips for WTEC 2 & 3 shifters over at http://www.transmissioninstruments.c...eshooting.html


Mine is a WTEC 3, single digit display.

Here is a cut and paste from the above (link) tech tip.


Instructions for WTECIII system [ single red digit on Your shift selector ]
Have You recently replaced battery and accidentally swapped battery terminals? If "YES", ECU maybe fried beyond repair. If "NOT", locate the ECU (in most RV's is near shift selector, close to VIM Module or, mostly on Trucks, close to transmission - just follow bundle of wires from transmission). Disconnect the battery first, then unplug all three connectors from ECU and reconnect battery. Closely check the GRAY connector for numbers. Insert test lamp leads into corresponding connector sockets: 1 and 32 then 16 and 17.
Next turn "ON" Ignition switch and insert test leads to 17 and 26. If cavity #26 is blank, use BLACK connector socket #4. Lamp must glow brightly.

#17; #32 = BATTERY GROUND; #1; #16 = BATERY POWER; #26 gray or #4 black = IGNITION

Next turn ignition and battery "OFF", reconnect GRAY ECU connector only, then reconnect battery and turn "ON" ignition. Then very carefully touch gold plated pins #16 and #32 [ on ECU for BLACK connector ] with lamp test leads. Lamp must glow bright. Then use a Voltmeter to check 5V on pin #3 [ on ECU for BLACK connector ] against chassis ground. DO NOT use test lamp!!! If no 5V is found on pin #3, ECU is defective.
Also check socket #3 on BLACK connector with Ohmmeter against chassis ground. Must be Must be over 4k ohms.

Shift selector can be check using ordinary 9V battery and hookup wire. Connect the 9V battery using hookup wire, which you may have to slightly bent on the ends so they can hold inside BLACK connector sockets. Connect Minus terminal to #32 and positive terminal to #3 and #16. After power "UP" all segments and RED LED [ Mode ] will be illuminated for 8 second and then display will show " cat eyes ". If one pushbutton "D","N" or "R" is hold down during power "UP", display will show "d", "N" or "R" for 2 second only. This way, You can check pushbutton switches.

If display will not be illuminated, maybe defective shift selector or harness. To check out harness, You must disconnect connector located
1/2' from selector. Then remove strain relief [black plastics ] from on vehicle harness connector and check closely rear side for letters.
"P" = GROUND "R" = POWER "N" = SENSOR POWER

Insert 3 short lengths of hookup wire into sockets "P", "R" and "N" and use a voltmeter to check voltage between "P" and "R" and between "P" and "N" if You using 9V battery. If ECU and battery still connected, insert lamp leads to "P" and "R", then turn ignition "ON" and with voltmeter check for 5V in socket "N".

If You do have voltage and there is no display, shift selector is most likely defective. If You do have voltage on ECU pins and not on the shifter connector, a defective harness is indicated.

Check continuity with Your Ohmmeter between "P" and chassis ground. Should be less than 1 OHM. If the meter reads "open", (Infinate resistance) find a good ground in the cabin, cut "P" wire 3" from connector and reconnect with new ground.
If missing 12V - "R", found "ignition" power, cut "R" and reconnect with "ignition" power. If missing "N" [ 5v ], cut "N" and reconnect with "ignition" power.

12V will not damage the shift selector. If one of three last steps will power up the shift selector but no response to commands, You may have additional harness damage or defective ECU or shifter. In this case, You can send ECU + shifter for free testing [You pay for shipping only].


Oh yeah, my first post...finally bought a bus!

Drove it all the way home from Louisville to Miami without a hiccup only to get back in it a few days later and it won't start. Check Trans light is "ON", on dash.

Let's see how this goes.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:26 PM   #2
Skoolie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Miami, Fl.
Posts: 113
Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E-Md3060
Progress made

Ok I think I found the problem.

Take a look at the pics I attached.
These are the steps I took as outlined in the above tech tip.

Quote:
If display will not be illuminated, maybe defective shift selector or harness. To check out harness, You must disconnect connector located
1/2' from selector. Then remove strain relief [black plastics ] from on vehicle harness connector and check closely rear side for letters.
"P" = GROUND "R" = POWER "N" = SENSOR POWER

Insert 3 short lengths of hookup wire into sockets "P", "R" and "N" and use a voltmeter to check voltage between "P" and "R" and between "P" and "N" if You using 9V battery. If ECU and battery still connected, insert lamp leads to "P" and "R", then turn ignition "ON" and with voltmeter check for 5V in socket "N".

If You do have voltage and there is no display, shift selector is most likely defective. If You do have voltage on ECU pins and not on the shifter connector, a defective harness is indicated.

Check continuity with Your Ohmmeter between "P" and chassis ground. Should be less than 1 OHM. If the meter reads "open", (Infinate resistance) find a good ground in the cabin, cut "P" wire 3" from connector and reconnect with new ground.
If missing 12V - "R", found "ignition" power, cut "R" and reconnect with "ignition" power. If missing "N" [ 5v ], cut "N" and reconnect with "ignition" power.
My problem was with my "R" wire/position on the harness. It is pink and on my bus it is wire # 136.

When I testesd "N" & "P" I found 5 volts - good! "P" is ground and "N" is positive voltage.

When I checked "P" & "N" - nada, no voltage.

"N" is wire # 124 / pink in color. This is the wire the mechanic told me to look for. Turns out it was "R" wire # 136 which was open inside the connector. When I took the connector apart I saw that the gold pin was on the wrong side of the connector.

Reconnected the Transmission ECU, turned the key and now I have power to the push pad!

Charging batteries on the bus, starter now clicks but not enough juice to spin!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_8932.jpg (183.7 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_8937.jpg (173.2 KB, 17 views)
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:53 PM   #3
Skoolie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Miami, Fl.
Posts: 113
Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E-Md3060


Bus is running again !!!



After reading many postings on the internet it seems that this is a common problem that could be a PIA to troubleshoot.

First thing I learned after going nuts looking for it, the VIM - Vehicle Interface Module on an Amtran bus. You will not find it like many posting suggest for Rv's or Trucks.
Look in the Passenger side, engine compartment, big black box with the rear start key switch...six or seven relays and fuses....That is the VIM. Look no further.

Transmission ECU is tucked between the frame rail and transmission, passenger side of bus.

Push Pad on dash, cable goes straight down to the floor then hugs the driver side frame rail all the way back to the transmission.

The connector that had the bad wire, just before the connector that goes to the tranny itself, driver side.

I have attached a homemade drawing of the female plug to the dash pad and also attached a wiring schematic for a Thomas bus which helped me out tremendously.

If anyone finds themselves in a similar situation, do not fret, follow the instructions on the tech tip from Transmission instruments, it was right on the money!

Now I get to rip out the seats !!!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf female plug to dash pad.pdf (606.5 KB, 12 views)
File Type: pdf md3060 wiring schematic for Thomas bus.pdf (956.2 KB, 15 views)
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Old 11-06-2018, 05:39 PM   #4
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 11,852
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
super write up! ive read about that MD3060 issue before.. and otherthing that hapens is water gets into the connectors sometimes. and causes issues.. fortiunately yours was just a bad power wire and you got it going!!
-Christopher
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Old 11-06-2018, 10:15 PM   #5
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: SW New Hampshire
Posts: 1,269
Yeah, +1 on your patience and on your chops! It's not often that a new member with some variation on "dead bus syndrome" finds the right troubleshooting information and works it to a successful conclusion, especially a really non-obvious problem like yours. Read the back stacks for epic battles where we've tried to assist somebody via the medium of ASCII characters. 3 cheers for you!
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:06 AM   #6
Bus Crazy
 
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Chassis: GMC
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Congratulations on chasing out that gremlin, well done.
Oh, and welcome to the uncertainties of everyday bus life!


John
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:47 AM   #7
Skoolie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Miami, Fl.
Posts: 113
Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E-Md3060
Here is a link to the WTEC 3 operations and code manual.

It clearly explains the functions of the push pad, diagnostic features and how to pull and read trouble codes too.

http://www.nimda.cz/docs/SA7297EN.pdf

Hope you find this helpful.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SA7297EN.pdf (536.9 KB, 7 views)
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Old 11-07-2018, 01:58 PM   #8
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 11,852
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I'll add that WTEC-3 (WTEC-III) is just a fancy name allison gave to the industry standard CAN-BUS protocol J-1939. even the older electronic engines.. (T-444E(97-newer),DT-466E, CAT-3126) and others. are able to utilize any Allison electronic transmission without special considerations.. you simply connect up the CAN 1 pins on your Allison TCM to the CAN pins on your engine ECM and your transmission will receive raw throttle data..



if you reprogram your ECM for an electronic transmission.. (in navistar you alter the parameter to 'allison MD'.) then your transmission will receive even more data..



you can also install a J-1939 scan tool to that trans link without having an electronic transmission and you can receive various engine parameters.. (J-1939 scan tools are more common than J-1708 (the diag connector on older engines is J170.


also to be noted is that installing a J-1939 scan tool in the data bus that your keypad and transmission are on, you can receive the trouble codes from your TCM (if you have an allison 2000 you dont have a digital keypard but the link is still there)..


-Christopher
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Old 11-07-2018, 02:23 PM   #9
Skoolie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Miami, Fl.
Posts: 113
Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E-Md3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJohn View Post
Congratulations on chasing out that gremlin, well done.
Oh, and welcome to the uncertainties of everyday bus life!


John
Looks like the gremlins came out last night and set me back to a no start condition.

When I turn the key to start, you can here starter engage and try to spin but it doesn't spin.

What I am noticing, in the "VIM" box, the relay for the "neutral start" clicks constantly which in turn the starter solenoid engages and disengages as this relay clicks on and off, so you hear and see the motor "kick" as it tries to spin, but doesn't.

Almost like what a dead battery does when you try to start a motor but it doesn't have enough juice.
I have super cleaned all the terminals and put on a battery charger while I work... Nada, zilch....

This relay gets it +v from the ECM, gray connector pin #6 and the ground signal comes from the battery and is also tied to the ECM at pin #17 (gray connector).

So what is making it get such an intermittent signal... A high open on any one of these two wires???

Checked with a light bulb, no dim lights, bright light so no high open present.

Started fine last night after the repairs....

Lord give me strength and some patience today....
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Old 11-07-2018, 02:58 PM   #10
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Picton,Ont, Can.
Posts: 1,729
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: GMC
Engine: Cat 3116
Rated Cap: 72
Strange happenings for sure.


Have you tried a different relay in place of the one that is on/off/on?


Can you see the space in the block that relay plugs into? On the back if you remove it you will likely see green, corrosion on the connections.
Worth checking but also sounds like your batteries aren't up yet.


Just some initial thoughts, I'm sure your connector from yesterday is tight and making good contact. Maybe move the shifter as you do the start procedure, might be out of adjustment.


John
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