Need a bigger engine/more power.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

There's no "chip".
A 654 is pretty much the same as a 643 only it has a crazy low granny gear. I'd rather go with the 643. It too has a locking tc.

I know a little about Allison transmissions. Not a guru by any stretch.

I am pretty sure that the MT-654 is a 5 speed transmission with a lock up converter and a 1:1 5th gear.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I know a little about Allison transmissions. Not a guru by any stretch.

I am pretty sure that the MT-654 is a 5 speed transmission with a lock up converter and a 1:1 5th gear.

Yeah, and a useless granny gear like said.
Same 1:1 top gear.

[Ronnie]

Hey granny gears are great for rock crawling, and pulling boats up launch ramps....

Ok so most of do not rock crawl with the bus. However pulling a boat up the launch ramp is a must for me.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by madhat

I read and re-read all the replies to my thread and learned a lot.
My bus doesn't overheat on flat ground and even some small hills. What I want to achieve with my swaps is to make the bus more roadworthy. My top speed is barely 50, even that is pushing the 2500 rpm. My partner and I work seasonal jobs and we snowbird at the same time. A lot of driving.
Crossing mountain passes I sometimes creep at 5-10 mph and having to pull over frequently to cool down.

What I learned here is that I can either get a really good 6 spd trans like allison 2000 and leave my original rear dif OR change my rear dif gearing plus an upgraded trans.

Also how do I find the rear dif gearing ratio? Where is it located?

I still have to say if 50mph is your top speed there is something wrong that needs to addressed before doing any mods, transmission or engine.

[Skalbus]

Truck dropped off my 643 today from LQM. Looks purdy. Ended up being $800. delivered. Trans was $645.

[alpine44]

Nice!
I am curious to learn what parts are necessary to mate the transmission to the T444 engine.

[Skalbus]

Originally Posted by alpine44

Nice!
I am curious to learn what parts are necessary to mate the transmission to the T444 engine.

That I don't know.
I'm working on getting all the details on mounting it to my DT466.

[alpine44]

Originally Posted by Skalbus

That I don't know.
I'm working on getting all the details on mounting it to my DT466.

Dang. I just realized that you are not the OP with the T444E.

[Skalbus]

Haha..just wanted to throw in that pic of the MT643 from LMQ. What a great deal.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Skalbus

Truck dropped off my 643 today from LQM. Looks purdy. Ended up being $800. delivered. Trans was $645.

I'm gonna have to give them a call.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by alpine44

The somewhere/somehow is the big problem. Since the installation needs to be truck proof this is not as easy/cheap as souping up a ricer.

I was tempted to 'redesign' the whole system but figured why not restore the factory design first and see where that goes.

New from the factory, the T444E stock radiator and charge cooler combo do the job. The cheapest and easiest 'upgrade' on my truck was to clean everything, chase down charge air leaks, get a new fan clutch, shroud and the upgraded fan with the gazillion blades. Now, the temp needle goes nowhere near the red zone regardless how hard I push the truck in the summer up a grade.

Definitely add an additional transmission cooler for the AT545 and change to a synthetic transmission fluid that stays 'thicker' when hot.

thats basically what I did on mine.. the 24 inch plastic fan upgrade, found a steal on a Horton E450 clutch.. then my trans swap.. now that bus on a near 100 degree day at highway cruise goes to 205, fan kicks in, goes to 200 fan kicks off.. if im on a grade the fan stays on a little longer.. running up a several mile long 7% grade on a really hot day runs the temp up to about 210-215. which on a 444E is quite acceptable.. the alarm temp is 235...

-Christopher

[madhat]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I still have to say if 50mph is your top speed there is something wrong that needs to addressed before doing any mods, transmission or engine.

My bus is governed from the factory. Pedal to the metal on flat ground would allow the bus to go 56mph top speed and rpm about 2500-2600
I drive it at 50 so I am not running the red line on the rpm

[Ronnie]

OK that makes a little more sense. Is top gear on the tranny locked out?

[madhat]

Originally Posted by alpine44

The somewhere/somehow is the big problem. Since the installation needs to be truck proof this is not as easy/cheap as souping up a ricer.

I was tempted to 'redesign' the whole system but figured why not restore the factory design first and see where that goes.

New from the factory, the T444E stock radiator and charge cooler combo do the job. The cheapest and easiest 'upgrade' on my truck was to clean everything, chase down charge air leaks, get a new fan clutch, shroud and the upgraded fan with the gazillion blades. Now, the temp needle goes nowhere near the red zone regardless how hard I push the truck in the summer up a grade.

Definitely add an additional transmission cooler for the AT545 and change to a synthetic transmission fluid that stays 'thicker' when hot.

Very helpful. Do you have any links to any of those parts?
Also do you remember how much did you spend on rejuvenating the "crap" cooling system?

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by madhat

My bus is governed from the factory. Pedal to the metal on flat ground would allow the bus to go 56mph top speed and rpm about 2500-2600
I drive it at 50 so I am not running the red line on the rpm

That doesn't sound governed. A governor would cut the engine power when you hit the top speed, then the bus will slow down a few mph before allowing it to accelerate again.
If you're at 2600 that's the rev limiter, not a governor.

Do you know what your rear axle ratio is?

[cowlitzcoach]

The basic problem you are having is you have a low HP version of the T444E with low top speed rear gearing.

I had one bus with that engine that had a top speed of 47 MPH--it didn't matter where you were with the pedal all the way down 47 MPH was as fast as it would go. But the way it would start to struggle on a hills I knew it wasn't the 210 HP engine. It was more likely the 160 HP engine. If you have the 160 HP version no amount of rear gearing changes or OD gearing will get you going any faster--you just don't have enough HP and torque to go faster.

If you have the 210-250 HP version of the engine you might be able to squeeze a little more go out of it. Changing to a transmission with a lock up convertor will allow you to use more of the HP and torque that you do have.

At the end of the day one does have to remember the vast majority of school buses are spe'c'ed to pick up and drop off kids on their way to and from school. Most of those buses will spend 95% of their service life at speeds less than 35 MPH. At those sorts of speeds there is very little incentive to spend more $$$ for options that would allow highway speeds.

Be aware that while the Power Stroke used in Ford products started out life as the IHC T444 engine Ford made a lot of changes to the engine, most of which makes it impossible for an IHC dealer to service a Ford engine. You can NOT just chip an IHC engine with a Ford chip--it won't work. You can get the IHC brain box reprogrammed but it has to be done by someone who has the tools to talk to the IHC brain box. It also may require some changes in hard parts like injectors.

If you don't have any personal attachment to your bus it might just be easier and less expensive to find another bus with the engine/transmission/rear end gearing you want and start over. If you do have a personal attachment to your bus then find a donor bus with the engine/transmission/rear end gearing you want and swap everything over. By the time you change the rear gears, update the cooling system, change the transmission, and upgrade the engine you will spend much more than what you would pay for another bus.

[madhat]

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

The basic problem you are having is you have a low HP version of the T444E with low top speed rear gearing.

I had one bus with that engine that had a top speed of 47 MPH--it didn't matter where you were with the pedal all the way down 47 MPH was as fast as it would go. But the way it would start to struggle on a hills I knew it wasn't the 210 HP engine. It was more likely the 160 HP engine. If you have the 160 HP version no amount of rear gearing changes or OD gearing will get you going any faster--you just don't have enough HP and torque to go faster.

If you have the 210-250 HP version of the engine you might be able to squeeze a little more go out of it. Changing to a transmission with a lock up convertor will allow you to use more of the HP and torque that you do have.

At the end of the day one does have to remember the vast majority of school buses are spe'c'ed to pick up and drop off kids on their way to and from school. Most of those buses will spend 95% of their service life at speeds less than 35 MPH. At those sorts of speeds there is very little incentive to spend more $$$ for options that would allow highway speeds.

Be aware that while the Power Stroke used in Ford products started out life as the IHC T444 engine Ford made a lot of changes to the engine, most of which makes it impossible for an IHC dealer to service a Ford engine. You can NOT just chip an IHC engine with a Ford chip--it won't work. You can get the IHC brain box reprogrammed but it has to be done by someone who has the tools to talk to the IHC brain box. It also may require some changes in hard parts like injectors.

If you don't have any personal attachment to your bus it might just be easier and less expensive to find another bus with the engine/transmission/rear end gearing you want and start over. If you do have a personal attachment to your bus then find a donor bus with the engine/transmission/rear end gearing you want and swap everything over. By the time you change the rear gears, update the cooling system, change the transmission, and upgrade the engine you will spend much more than what you would pay for another bus.

That is exactly what I started thinking too. I paid 4k $ for mine and the conversion is not even complete.
I found this shorter bus that I really like.
What do you guys think of the following "

Year: 1999
Make/Model: Blue Bird Mfd on GMC B7 Chassis
Seating Capacity: 36 Passenger
Engine: 7.2L Caterpiller 3126 Diesel
Transmission: Allison Auto
Mileage: 87,460mi

Its a conventional style 7 window. The owner said that it has a 4 spd 654 trans with top gear 1:1. I am not exactly sure what does it mean. He said the bus will do 65 easy and not die on the long grades. Just wondering how is this possible with almost the same engine and a 4 spd non OD trans.?

Thanks for helping out. I am really impressed with the skoolie community, nice folk

[david.dgeorge07]

Originally Posted by madhat

That is exactly what I started thinking too. I paid 4k $ for mine and the conversion is not even complete.

I found this shorter bus that I really like.

What do you guys think of the following "



Year: 1999

Make/Model: Blue Bird Mfd on GMC B7 Chassis

Seating Capacity: 36 Passenger

Engine: 7.2L Caterpiller 3126 Diesel

Transmission: Allison Auto

Mileage: 87,460mi



Its a conventional style 7 window. The owner said that it has a 4 spd 654 trans with top gear 1:1. I am not exactly sure what does it mean. He said the bus will do 65 easy and not die on the long grades. Just wondering how is this possible with almost the same engine and a 4 spd non OD trans.?



Thanks for helping out. I am really impressed with the skoolie community, nice folk

Displacement is not the only measure of an engine. I have a full size with the 7.2 3126. Not a powerhouse (can do 65) but I imagine would be peppy in a smaller bus. That’s a solid transmission, but many 3126s are mated to the MD 3060 which can be 6 speed and is fairly bombproof.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by madhat

That is exactly what I started thinking too. I paid 4k $ for mine and the conversion is not even complete.
I found this shorter bus that I really like.
What do you guys think of the following "

Year: 1999
Make/Model: Blue Bird Mfd on GMC B7 Chassis
Seating Capacity: 36 Passenger
Engine: 7.2L Caterpiller 3126 Diesel
Transmission: Allison Auto
Mileage: 87,460mi

Its a conventional style 7 window. The owner said that it has a 4 spd 654 trans with top gear 1:1. I am not exactly sure what does it mean. He said the bus will do 65 easy and not die on the long grades. Just wondering how is this possible with almost the same engine and a 4 spd non OD trans.?

Thanks for helping out. I am really impressed with the skoolie community, nice folk

Unless the owned swapped in that 654 I'd bet its actually a 643.

What's the Cat in that one rated at? My shorty is a 5 window and has the 190 version. Pulls nicely. With 4.11 rear it does 75++. And it still has the dreaded 545. Freshly remanned.

[madhat]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Unless the owned swapped in that 654 I'd bet its actually a 643.

What's the Cat in that one rated at? My shorty is a 5 window and has the 190 version. Pulls nicely. With 4.11 rear it does 75++. And it still has the dreaded 545. Freshly remanned.

I think the owner said it had the 175 hp version.