Newer diesels... the good, the bad, and ugly?

[chev49]

Hallscott... unless u like 4 mpg

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Tyania

Well this info has been great but it has narrowed down my already narrow search... And while I have been researching all the engines you all mentioned, I noticed that there have been some gas engines in the mix. (I had thought that only van cutaways had gas options.)

Any gas engines that I should keep my eyes out for? Note that I am not restricted to post 2004 if I get a gas engine since as long as long as it is not so old that it is structurally or mechanically unsound, it could work!

Would love your opinions since I am ready to buy and need it to do it soon. Could use the extra options to open the possibililties.

I'd avoid the Ford gas engines. The 5.4 in particular.
The Chevy/GMC 5.7 and 6.0 engines are GREAT and I'd say are the cream of the crop.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I'd avoid the Ford gas engines. The 5.4 in particular.
The Chevy/GMC 5.7 and 6.0 engines are GREAT and I'd say are the cream of the crop.

I had a good chat with the service manage at one of the local districts. He loves the GM 6.0's. He said that the fuel mileage is not quite as good as the diesels that they replaced but was close. On the reliability & ease of service side of things he was quite happy with them.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I had a good chat with the service manage at one of the local districts. He loves the GM 6.0's. He said that the fuel mileage is not quite as good as the diesels that they replaced but was close. On the reliability & ease of service side of things he was quite happy with them.

I'm TOTALLY impressed with the 6.0 in my friend Adam's truck we use to pull the landscaping trailer around. Its pulled equipment for almost every bit of the 250,000+ miles that engine has on it. And it still runs like a champ. I want one in a van!

[cowlitzcoach]

The last gasoline powered full size buses were built on the GM chassis with the Tonawanda 366 truck big block V-8 engine.

At the time GM had an exclusive contract to supply OEM vendor supplied chassis with Blue Bird. The Blue Bird/GM CV200 was built until 2003. They were not bad buses but performance compared to the same basic bus with a different chassis with a diesel engine was woefully lacking. The biggest strike against them was fuel mileage tended to be about half what identical buses with diesel engines were getting.

Since then all of the bus OEM's have offered propane options and Blue Bird has offered CNG options as another option.

CNG and propane are great options for route buses. But they tend to be tethered to a circle a little less than half the full distance they can go since fueling away from home can be problematical. It is especially a problem for the CNG option.

Of the propane options the IC is the best IMHO. The Blue Bird uses a Rausch conversion on a Ford engine with a Ford supplied transmission. Allison transmissions won't work due to the high revving nature of the Ford engines. Thomas uses a conversion on the GM Tonawanda big block gas V-8's. They are able to use a modified Allison transmission. IC uses a purpose built propane engine supplied by Power Solutions that was designed and built to meet or exceed all of the performance parameters of a Cummins ISB engine. Because it has similar power and performance as the ISB it is able to be paired with a standard Allison transmission. https://www.icbus.com/bus/articles/power-propane On-Highway Engines | Power Solutions International, Inc. – Cleantech Engine Manufacturing

You will need to go pretty far back into the '80's or early '90's models of IHC or Ford to find any other gas powered buses.

[Tyania]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I'd avoid the Ford gas engines. The 5.4 in particular.
The Chevy/GMC 5.7 and 6.0 engines are GREAT and I'd say are the cream of the crop.

You mentioned the gmc 6.0 engine in another thread and I assumed this could only be found in the van style chasis. Let me know if I am wrong. I noticed that some conventional style buses had gas engines in the past and was hoping to have that combo as an option.
BTW: after your gas recomendation on the other thread, I did find a long bodied (6 window) van cutaway activity bus that looks beautiful but unfortunately at nearly 16 grand was more than I want to spend... Point being that they are out there even though I was a non believer. Hope for gas yet?
Thanks.

[Tyania]

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

The last gasoline powered full size buses were built on the GM chassis with the Tonawanda 366 truck big block V-8 engine.

Are these the big box style ones that I see through the 90's?
Thanks for the info. It saves me the time of looking for something that doesn't exist.
We are drooling over the cng and propane powered buses but haven't noticed anything within a decent price range... I am keeping my eyes peeled for one or... Maybe for the next bus, hihihi. Thanks for the articles.

[cowlitzcoach]

Originally Posted by Tyania

You mentioned the gmc 6.0 engine in another thread and I assumed this could only be found in the van style chasis. Let me know if I am wrong. I noticed that some conventional style buses had gas engines in the past and was hoping to have that combo as an option.
BTW: after your gas recomendation on the other thread, I did find a long bodied (6 window) van cutaway activity bus that looks beautiful but unfortunately at nearly 16 grand was more than I want to spend... Point being that they are out there even though I was a non believer. Hope for gas yet?
Thanks.

The 6.0L didn't make an appearance until about model year 2001. I have never seen one in a Blue Bird/GM CV200 but that doesn't mean one didn't find itself in a smaller bus. The 6.0L in a Type 'A' bus moves the bus along right smartly, even with a full load. The 6.0L in full size bus will move the bus better than the 5.7L did but it is, at the end of the day, a small block engine.

[Tyania]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the Navistar VT-365 was the one which had the most issiues with its EGR system.. its very similar cousin to the Ford power-stroke 6.0. the VT-365 didnt have as many issues as its ford counter-part however it is what began to give the emissions diesels a bad rap..

I have read that there. Is a "fix" for the ford 6.0l (Changing the heads and the egr cooler?) To make it reliable. Is there a similar fix for the vt365? It seems to be the engine in nearly all of the 6 and 7 window IC buses I am finding.

[Tyania]

Auction says...
2004 INTERNATIONAL 3000 W/IC 14 PASSENGER BUS BODY, T444E DIESEL, AUTO, AIR BRAKES, HEATED MIRRORS, WHEEL CHAIR LIFT, DRW, MILEAGE EXEMPT, METER READS 187729, VIN: 4DRBRABN74A961106
Opionions? I need to be fast. Photos on the link below.
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/2004-I...56847&origin=1
It is slightly larger than my first-bus-intimidated-self was looking for... But it is not huge and is close to home finally.
It will be sight unseen and those auctions give so little info but if it goes cheap enough, I guess unseen problems can be dealt with. What do you all think?

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by Tyania

Auction says...
2004 INTERNATIONAL 3000 W/IC 14 PASSENGER BUS BODY, T444E DIESEL, AUTO, AIR BRAKES, HEATED MIRRORS, WHEEL CHAIR LIFT, DRW, MILEAGE EXEMPT, METER READS 187729, VIN: 4DRBRABN74A961106
Opionions? I need to be fast. Photos on the link below.
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/2004-I...56847&origin=1
It is slightly larger than my first-bus-intimidated-self was looking for... But it is not huge and is close to home finally.
It will be sight unseen and those auctions give so little info but if it goes cheap enough, I guess unseen problems can be dealt with. What do you all think?

That is a nice looking bus but you are right to have concern about buying a bus with so little information.

The auction is close to the end and the price is currently quite low. If you can get it at a low enough price, I think it is a reasonable gamble.

I am pretty sure that by 2004 they were no longer installing the AT545 transmission so this one would likely have a 2000 or 3000 series and likely set up as a 5 speed.

Good luck!

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Tyania

Auction says...
2004 INTERNATIONAL 3000 W/IC 14 PASSENGER BUS BODY, T444E DIESEL, AUTO, AIR BRAKES, HEATED MIRRORS, WHEEL CHAIR LIFT, DRW, MILEAGE EXEMPT, METER READS 187729, VIN: 4DRBRABN74A961106
Opionions? I need to be fast. Photos on the link below.
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/2004-I...56847&origin=1
It is slightly larger than my first-bus-intimidated-self was looking for... But it is not huge and is close to home finally.
It will be sight unseen and those auctions give so little info but if it goes cheap enough, I guess unseen problems can be dealt with. What do you all think?

If that really has a 444E that's gonna be as good as it gets for your criteria, IMO.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

If that really has a 444E that's gonna be as good as it gets for your criteria, IMO.

The pictures on the auction site shows a T444

[cowlitzcoach]

Originally Posted by Tyania

Auction says...
2004 INTERNATIONAL 3000 W/IC 14 PASSENGER BUS BODY, T444E DIESEL, AUTO, AIR BRAKES, HEATED MIRRORS, WHEEL CHAIR LIFT, DRW, MILEAGE EXEMPT, METER READS 187729, VIN: 4DRBRABN74A961106
Opionions? I need to be fast. Photos on the link below.
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/2004-I...56847&origin=1
It is slightly larger than my first-bus-intimidated-self was looking for... But it is not huge and is close to home finally.
It will be sight unseen and those auctions give so little info but if it goes cheap enough, I guess unseen problems can be dealt with. What do you all think?

It looks like a fairly nice bus and it appears to be in decent shape.

It has some desirable options like heated remote control mirrors.

I would not go over $3,500.00 for it though.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

The pictures on the auction site shows a T444

Heck yeah!
Sure beats the heck out of buying a 6.0 and spending ten grand on upgrades and repairs in the hopes of keeping it alive.

[Tyania]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

The pictures on the auction site shows a T444

What do you see? In the engine photo? It might not pass importation if it is not an emission control engine so that would be a major deal breaker for me... Which after fixing it up and converting it before I take it south, would be a massive bummer.
Does anyone else see what Steve sees as well? Loving all of your educated, experienced eyes and opinion.

[cadillackid]

the T444E is a non emission engine... the Bus may be a 2004, however it is likely running on a 2003 Model year chassis (yes this was fairly common).. the 444E was technically discontinued after the 2003 model year.. since the bus was built by the body builder in the 2004 Model year, the bus will be titled a 2004..
the T-444E had no EGR on it and was definitely before DPF.

im not sure if there are retrofitted versions of these that were sold and Licensed n california which would pass the inspections you need??

the VT-365 engine was a Tier 1 emission engine which had an EGR (instead of a draft tube).

-Christopher

[QuixotryHugger]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

That is a nice looking bus but you are right to have concern about buying a bus with so little information.

The auction is close to the end and the price is currently quite low. If you can get it at a low enough price, I think it is a reasonable gamble.

I am pretty sure that by 2004 they were no longer installing the AT545 transmission so this one would likely have a 2000 or 3000 series and likely set up as a 5 speed.

Good luck!

^this is a dope rule of thumb about the transmission, thanks for that!

I called a school system today about an '09 IC CE advertised as a DT466 that actually has a MaxxForce DT in it with a 2500. Called another about an '06 IC CE DT466 to find out what transmission... but knowing it's likely not a 545 warms my heart

[cadillackid]

Yep last year of production for the AT545 was 2003.. so these newer units will have the 2000 or 3000 series.. the 06 and 09 are both 4th gen which could theoretically have 6th gear unlocked if desired

[ori_hab]

Ok, bumping another very old thread, with an updated question:

I understand the 2005-2010 emissions engines were problematic, but what about the newer ones? say 2014+ cummins 6.7? by 2014 they have been (hopefully) improving for 7 years, and in addition to busses, installing in millions of ram HD pickups.

Is a 2014 bus with a 6.7 cummins (with DEF) still unreliable? Like, honestly, is it possible a 2003 cummins 5.9 is more reliable than a 2014 6.7? I saw the DEF fluid (while obv a bummer) actually reduces concerns for DPF clogging...

I understand DEF fluid is a bummer, but my 5.9 stinks (literally). Would the 6.7 smell when idling? I understand problems could be expensive to repair, but is a 2014 6.7 still considered unreliable?

Thanks!