Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-18-2019, 09:36 AM   #1
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
Parts required for AT545 to MT643 changeover.

This threat will be more for me than anyone else but I'm putting it here so everyone can learn from it.

My subject today for this thread is a 1994-95 International tiny big bus.( yes that is a model. I looked it up.) Some of the specs are,

* Beauty
* DT408
* AT545 (in good shape but still a non lockup converter)
* 4.78 rear end ratio
* reverend model not right now but will add later
* 9R22.5 tires
* unicorn wheels - 6 lugs pizza cutters
* I will add as items come to mind as this post will be for specs only.


__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 09:37 AM   #2
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
This one reserved for me not you. I am copying items and putting them in this post.

1. Buy MT643
2. Remove adapter so I take it from a SAE 3 to 2..
3. Remove adapter on the flywheel.
4. Find driveline shop that can shorten driveshaft.
5. Determine speedometer hookup and sensors.




I am not sure this is a member here but it is a nice write-up.

https://tatumskoolie.wordpress.com/2...allison-mt643/







__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 09:38 AM   #3
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
More not you but me me me.
__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 10:05 AM   #4
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
I must go on a job now but will be back.
__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 10:52 AM   #5
Bus Nut
 
johnbloem1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Montana/Texas
Posts: 682
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Crown by Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: 230 HP DT 466e/MT 643!
Rated Cap: 16
So, I will jump in and dare to comment!

On my swap (545 to 643 1998 DT466E)
Shorten driveshaft
remove adapter at engine/transmission mount
643 flexplate and shorter bolts
remove spacer on output shaft
different coolant line fittings
modulator
was able to re-use: speedo sensor, reverse sensor, dipstick, shift linkage.

I think that was it!

John
johnbloem1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 04:03 PM   #6
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbloem1974 View Post
So, I will jump in and dare to comment!

On my swap (545 to 643 1998 DT466E)
Shorten driveshaft
remove adapter at engine/transmission mount
643 flexplate and shorter bolts
remove spacer on output shaft
different coolant line fittings
modulator
was able to re-use: speedo sensor, reverse sensor, dipstick, shift linkage.

I think that was it!

John
I have a question about the output shaft and modulator. Are you speaking about the rear of the transmission.


__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 05:17 PM   #7
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,835
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I did this swap on a Mechanical DTA360 with Air brakes..


as others have mentioned the steps.. I think I covered parts of it in my DEV random thread.



the big thing for you is to make sure if your engine is diesgnated as NGD or not.. the NGD engines use a 12 bolt flywheel and the non NGD engines use an 8 bolt flywheel. this is important for the flexplate. from what I have been told by a couple peoplpe on an International forum is that All DT408's use a 12 bolt flywheel, which means a flexplate from a Pre-EGR DT-466E would be the same.



shorter flywheel bolts will be required, how much shorter I dont know since mine is Pre-NGD. I used the opportunit to pull off the flywheel and make sure that the housing-to-block bolts were still tight and inspected the rear main seal to make sure it was dry.



putting the flywheel bolts back in I used grade 8 and torqued with a torque-wrench and just a small Dab of blue LocTite on a couple threads.

is your bus hydraulic brakes with the drum on the back of the AT545? if so you will want to verify the mounting holes are the same on both .. I can measure the mounting hole pattern on my MT643 if needbe.. my old AT545 is gone.



Speedometer - if you obtain a 643 with a Tone ring in it, your speed sensor from the AT545 just fits right into the MT643 and done.. you will need to lengthen the harness.. the harness is a 2 pin WeatherPak connector.


Reverse lights - pressure switch moves right over


Neutral safety - connector moves right over


Yoke - splines are same so moves right over


Cooling Lines - AT545 lines come off the Top of the trans and are #8 JIC (flare).


MT643 has Bosses for #12 ORB (O-Ring-Boss) fittings. I made myself new lines to go to my radiator.. one was going to be too short.



here are the fittings I used so I could use same Hose size or if your lines are long enough you can re-use. these thread into the transmission.


https://www.grainger.com/product/4VT...f5214a735fe666


and this is an angle flare to flare that made it easier for me to route my lines from the trans.



https://www.grainger.com/product/4VP...f5214a735fe666


Modulator - move from AT545 to MT643


Shifter Cable - I had to modify my shifter cable bracket a little by drilling new holes in it to hold cable so the geometry was right. some people say its a simple move over and bolt up..



Dipstick - Moves right over assuming your 545 is deep pan with dipstick tube going into the side.. and it will still be accurate.


Driveshaft - I used the opportunity to have all of my driveshafts rebuilt, balanced, new U-joints, and Clocked.. eliminated the driveline Vibe I had previous. (yes read about clocking driveshafts).



Torque-Converter-bolts - I was able to access from inside with the doghouse off the bus .. there is a forward facing hole in the flywheel housing to access the 6 converter bolts.. they will have been LocTite'd from the factory if installed to spec. it is not the heat-only loctite so you can get them loose.. I used an extension and tapped on the ratchet as just turning caused the motor to want to turn.. a couple of the bolts fell down into the housing .. I didnt care..



when installing the 643, its converter is studded so when I got the trans close I had used extra long temporary bolts to draw it into alignment .. with a little pressure on the converter.. rotating it from underneath(converter) with a screwdiriver.. one of the studs poked through its hole and made guiding in the trans easy..



a little loctite on each nut and a bit of axle grease to hold the nut in the socket.. and done.. torque with torque wrench.. (and a box end jammed in the inspection hole underneath to keep my engine from turning)..




Horsing the Trans - an AT545 with converter weighs about 350 lbs. an MT643 about 650-700 lbs.. I used a mixture of a Harboer freight trans jack and 10,000 lb ratchet straps to hoist and maneuver the transmissions around.. an engine hoist came in handy for moving them in and out of my pickup truck.. when I did the allison 1000 on my short bus with little wheels I had to put down shiny cardboard and slide the trans under the bus on the ground.. my DEV bus has 11R tires and so I could set the trans on the jack and horse it under the bus.. I did pump up my air suspension to maximum to get the trans underneath.. then I let it back down for working underneath... if you have a helper its much easier. but I have no one to work with me so I must get creative with tools..


the Dog-House. - take this time to make sure that your body and chassis are mated correctly... mine werent.. it let lots of engine heat into my bus.. with my doghouse and trans removed I could fix , insualte, seam-seal, Dynamat, and the like.. the result is much quieter and almost no engine-heat on my feet which gives my Air-Con a chance to cool me in southern USA july / august heat that I travel alot.




I hope i didnt write too much of a book here..
-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 05:19 PM   #8
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,835
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycal View Post
I have a question about the output shaft and modulator. Are you speaking about the rear of the transmission.





the modulator is a little device on the left-side of the trans about 3/4 way back.. looks like a little pancake wit ha cable coming out of it.. you can move that over.. my cable had enough slack to be no issue.


the output shaft is the rear shaft of the transmission that the drive-shaft connects to.
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 06:03 PM   #9
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,708
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Any of you guys inspect the governor when you swap? It might be necessary depending on which engine the trans was originally designed for and what engine it's going into.
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 06:19 PM   #10
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
I did this swap on a Mechanical DTA360 with Air brakes..


as others have mentioned the steps.. I think I covered parts of it in my DEV random thread.



the big thing for you is to make sure if your engine is diesgnated as NGD or not.. the NGD engines use a 12 bolt flywheel and the non NGD engines use an 8 bolt flywheel. this is important for the flexplate. from what I have been told by a couple peoplpe on an International forum is that All DT408's use a 12 bolt flywheel, which means a flexplate from a Pre-EGR DT-466E would be the same.



shorter flywheel bolts will be required, how much shorter I dont know since mine is Pre-NGD. I used the opportunit to pull off the flywheel and make sure that the housing-to-block bolts were still tight and inspected the rear main seal to make sure it was dry.



putting the flywheel bolts back in I used grade 8 and torqued with a torque-wrench and just a small Dab of blue LocTite on a couple threads.

is your bus hydraulic brakes with the drum on the back of the AT545? if so you will want to verify the mounting holes are the same on both .. I can measure the mounting hole pattern on my MT643 if needbe.. my old AT545 is gone.



Speedometer - if you obtain a 643 with a Tone ring in it, your speed sensor from the AT545 just fits right into the MT643 and done.. you will need to lengthen the harness.. the harness is a 2 pin WeatherPak connector.


Reverse lights - pressure switch moves right over


Neutral safety - connector moves right over


Yoke - splines are same so moves right over


Cooling Lines - AT545 lines come off the Top of the trans and are #8 JIC (flare).


MT643 has Bosses for #12 ORB (O-Ring-Boss) fittings. I made myself new lines to go to my radiator.. one was going to be too short.



here are the fittings I used so I could use same Hose size or if your lines are long enough you can re-use. these thread into the transmission.


https://www.grainger.com/product/4VT...f5214a735fe666


and this is an angle flare to flare that made it easier for me to route my lines from the trans.



https://www.grainger.com/product/4VP...f5214a735fe666


Modulator - move from AT545 to MT643


Shifter Cable - I had to modify my shifter cable bracket a little by drilling new holes in it to hold cable so the geometry was right. some people say its a simple move over and bolt up..



Dipstick - Moves right over assuming your 545 is deep pan with dipstick tube going into the side.. and it will still be accurate.


Driveshaft - I used the opportunity to have all of my driveshafts rebuilt, balanced, new U-joints, and Clocked.. eliminated the driveline Vibe I had previous. (yes read about clocking driveshafts).



Torque-Converter-bolts - I was able to access from inside with the doghouse off the bus .. there is a forward facing hole in the flywheel housing to access the 6 converter bolts.. they will have been LocTite'd from the factory if installed to spec. it is not the heat-only loctite so you can get them loose.. I used an extension and tapped on the ratchet as just turning caused the motor to want to turn.. a couple of the bolts fell down into the housing .. I didnt care..



when installing the 643, its converter is studded so when I got the trans close I had used extra long temporary bolts to draw it into alignment .. with a little pressure on the converter.. rotating it from underneath(converter) with a screwdiriver.. one of the studs poked through its hole and made guiding in the trans easy..



a little loctite on each nut and a bit of axle grease to hold the nut in the socket.. and done.. torque with torque wrench.. (and a box end jammed in the inspection hole underneath to keep my engine from turning)..




Horsing the Trans - an AT545 with converter weighs about 350 lbs. an MT643 about 650-700 lbs.. I used a mixture of a Harboer freight trans jack and 10,000 lb ratchet straps to hoist and maneuver the transmissions around.. an engine hoist came in handy for moving them in and out of my pickup truck.. when I did the allison 1000 on my short bus with little wheels I had to put down shiny cardboard and slide the trans under the bus on the ground.. my DEV bus has 11R tires and so I could set the trans on the jack and horse it under the bus.. I did pump up my air suspension to maximum to get the trans underneath.. then I let it back down for working underneath... if you have a helper its much easier. but I have no one to work with me so I must get creative with tools..


the Dog-House. - take this time to make sure that your body and chassis are mated correctly... mine werent.. it let lots of engine heat into my bus.. with my doghouse and trans removed I could fix , insualte, seam-seal, Dynamat, and the like.. the result is much quieter and almost no engine-heat on my feet which gives my Air-Con a chance to cool me in southern USA july / august heat that I travel alot.




I hope i didnt write too much of a book here..
-Christopher
Thank you very much. I would like to include this in my post above for other members but do you have it written somewhere elsewhere I can just include a link?

About the new generation diesel question. The motor is straight up mechanical. I have to pull a knob to cut off the fuel supply to the injection pump. So I think this is pre new generation. I should determine the number of bolts on the torque converter so I don't have to deal with this when everything is in pieces.
__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 08:23 PM   #11
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,835
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
the way I understand it.. NGD preceeds 'E' engines.. NGD still had high pressure pumps.. the E series went to the HEUI system..



the DT408 was never made in an E from what I understand.. it was simply a slightly higher power stop-Gap for the discontinued DTA360 (went away after 93)..


both NGD and E were sold side by side through 97.. (you'll see a few 98 model year busses with NGD 466;s since busses lag behind a year at times)...


since you dont drive the Bus every day.. im thinking the thing to do will be to pull the 545 and see if you have an 8 bolt or 12 bolt..



I took a few pictures.. some got lost when i got a new phone.. but never did a write-upfor my 545 to 643 install like I did my 545 to A-1000.

that my friend comes from being a partner in 1 company in 2017 (when i did the A-1000)... to beinfg a partner in 3 companies.. lol leaves little time to work on this stuff and even less to document it...
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 09:42 PM   #12
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
Understood.
__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2022, 03:57 PM   #13
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbloem1974 View Post
So, I will jump in and dare to comment!

On my swap (545 to 643 1998 DT466E)
Shorten driveshaft
remove adapter at engine/transmission mount
643 flexplate and shorter bolts
remove spacer on output shaft
different coolant line fittings
modulator
was able to re-use: speedo sensor, reverse sensor, dipstick, shift linkage.

I think that was it!

John
John, I know this has been a while, but I am desperate for part numbers for this swap. Dt466E and AT545 to Mt643.
dustyskys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2022, 09:23 PM   #14
Bus Nut
 
johnbloem1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Montana/Texas
Posts: 682
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Crown by Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: 230 HP DT 466e/MT 643!
Rated Cap: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyskys View Post
John, I know this has been a while, but I am desperate for part numbers for this swap. Dt466E and AT545 to Mt643.
Damn, part numbers escape me. When I did it I got everything from the International Dealership in Phoenix, AZ... they ordered everything for me....

Sorry...

Hopefully someone else can chime in with the actual part numbers?

I'm assuming you're looking for the flexplate? That seems to be the thing that gets folks...

John
johnbloem1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2022, 09:28 PM   #15
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbloem1974 View Post
Damn, part numbers escape me. When I did it I got everything from the International Dealership in Phoenix, AZ... they ordered everything for me....

Sorry...

Hopefully someone else can chime in with the actual part numbers?

I'm assuming you're looking for the flexplate? That seems to be the thing that gets folks...

John
Yes, The also, there are a few part numbers for the small ring. They all have 12 bolts, but I'm wondering if the different part numbers are for the length of bolts that go with them...? Fly wheel/ Flexplate, Adaptor ring/converter plate, and small ring.
dustyskys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2022, 10:50 AM   #16
Bus Nut
 
johnbloem1974's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Montana/Texas
Posts: 682
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Crown by Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: 230 HP DT 466e/MT 643!
Rated Cap: 16
So, in my case, the only things that came with my new MT643 was the actual transmission and the flexplate. I was able to use the same flywheel from the original setup. Additionally, the spacer ring around the transmission housing was not used (643 bolts directly on the engine housing without any spacer rings) and the small spacer between the flexplate and transmission was also not used. I went to the local hardware store to get the properly sized bolts needed (they were shorter by the size of the deleted spacer) and the proper cooler line fittings for the new transmission as they were different from the old 545.

John
johnbloem1974 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.