Problems starting 1991 Ford B600

[jazty]

Originally Posted by urban_racoons

Thanks jazty. I went out and got the CAT battery charger from home depot. Attached them to the bus and started to charge. Within a few minutes, the lcd indicated a "bad battery" state (or whatever that was supposed to mean). It comes with a "reconditioner" function, so I figured it couldn't hurt to leave that on overnight and see how things progress tomorrow. The home depot return policy is pretty lenient, so we'll see...

Nice.. Even if you do need new batteries, are you sure you want to return the charger? They're handy things to have and can get you out of future battery jambs.

Originally Posted by urban_racoons

The fallback plan is to get a group 31 and or this: CAT 1000-Amp Pro Portable Jump Starter-CJ3000 - The Home Depot

I would skip the portable jump starter.. If you need a new battery anyway then you can just use that new battery and jumper cables to do the same thing.

If I were in your shoes I would approach the situation like this:

Let's say the bus batteries are completely useless.. You only need to move the bus 15 feet..
Get new battery; charge battery fully; put battery on a step in the front door; jump battery to starter; try to start.
Don't operate the starter for too long. Those booster cables will burn up.
If it starts, great! Carefully and slowly move the bus backwards. Have a second set of hands to handle the booster cable so it isn't getting stuck under the wheel and/or coming off of the contacts.
Now that the battery bay is accessible, swap out the batteries.

[Scooternj]

And keep the charger! Even if you don't use it for the bus, its still useful for light vehicles.

[milkmania]

Originally Posted by urban_racoons

So I guess buying a $100 battery will probably be worth it. Looking at it again, I might not be able to push it far enough. How bad would cutting the battery cable really be? Couldn't I just repair it with some fancy connectors (like the battery leads) and a bunch of insulating material?

here's the situation I've gotten into with a AC/Delco Professional battery on a limousine... 850CCA, 7 year warranty, with 42 months FREE REPLACEMENT.
about 2 years the battery starts getting kinda flaky, because I don't run it enough... I text the dealer and tell him it's doing it again... he says bring it back, there'll be a new one, when you get here.

sure, I gave over $200 for the Commercial Fleet battery initially.... but I haven't bought one since!

Truck & Car Battery | ACDelco Professional Gold Battery

this works for my situation

[urban_racoons]

Ok yeah I'm totally with you Jazty, the only question I have is: say I get the new battery and connect it to the starter positive and ground terminals, but I leave the dead batteries in the circuit - would it be possible that the dead batteries would create some sort of current shunt that would keep the new fresh battery from properly providing current and starting the bus?

I suppose if I keep the charger I could give it a shot with the dead batteries connected once, and if it doesn't work, recharge the fresh battery and then try to disconnect the dead batteries and give it another go.

[crazycal]

Originally Posted by milkmania

here's the situation I've gotten into with a AC/Delco Professional battery on a limousine... 850CCA, 7 year warranty, with 42 months FREE REPLACEMENT.
about 2 years the battery starts getting kinda flaky, because I don't run it enough... I text the dealer and tell him it's doing it again... he says bring it back, there'll be a new one, when you get here.

sure, I gave over $200 for the Commercial Fleet battery initially.... but I haven't bought one since!

Truck & Car Battery | ACDelco Professional Gold Battery

this works for my situation

$200 for a battery? Not sure if your limo is a Lincoln or not. Lincoln has a group 65 battery. Less than a hundred bucks at Costco. Free replacement, no questions asked for 36 months. Might have raised it 42 months. Their batteries are made by Interstate.

[crazycal]

Originally Posted by urban_racoons

Ok yeah I'm totally with you Jazty, the only question I have is: say I get the new battery and connect it to the starter positive and ground terminals, but I leave the dead batteries in the circuit - would it be possible that the dead batteries would create some sort of current shunt that would keep the new fresh battery from properly providing current and starting the bus?

I suppose if I keep the charger I could give it a shot with the dead batteries connected once, and if it doesn't work, recharge the fresh battery and then try to disconnect the dead batteries and give it another go.

I don't think you want to leave a dead battery connected to a new one. Pretty sure it will suck juice out of the new battery.

[milkmania]

Originally Posted by crazycal

$200 for a battery? Not sure if your limo is a Lincoln or not. Lincoln has a group 65 battery. Less than a hundred bucks at Costco. Free replacement, no questions asked for 36 months. Might have raised it 42 months. Their batteries are made by Interstate.

you are correct on all counts... but, I don't know the groups.
my nearest costco is 184 miles away.
I support my local tire and auto mechanic (established 1963) that I've used since the mid 80's. I know the interstate truck delivers to him. he won't sell any others

If they mark my battery up that much, it's fine by me... I haven't bought another one in many years, and the son of the owner has used my limousine services many times in the past, and he's hired me for his daughter's prom, 21st. birthday, and wedding... back scratching goes a long ways sometimes.

Owner passed away recently, and now deal solely with son. He offered me Razorback games tickets several times, but I don't watch football (his family are alumni business supporters)

I stopped running the service July 1st 2014, texted son last week and said battery went nipples up and he said bring it in.

As far as shopping around on this guy... never thought about it one time.

[milkmania]

dangit, now you got me wondering how bad he's getting to me

I'll have to look at my numbers

http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nk...d=400643194319

[crazycal]

Originally Posted by milkmania

you are correct on all counts... but, I don't know the groups.
my nearest costco is 184 miles away.
I support my local tire and auto mechanic (established 1963) that I've used since the mid 80's. I know the interstate truck delivers to him. he won't sell any others

If they mark my battery up that much, it's fine by me... I haven't bought another one in many years, and the son of the owner has used my limousine services many times in the past, and he's hired me for his daughter's prom, 21st. birthday, and wedding... back scratching goes a long ways sometimes.

Owner passed away recently, and now deal solely with son. He offered me Razorback games tickets several times, but I don't watch football (his family are alumni business supporters)

I stopped running the service July 1st 2014, texted son last week and said battery went nipples up and he said bring it in.

As far as shopping around on this guy... never thought about it one time.

Fair enough. One hand washes the other. I can understand that.

Kind of like the vending business I once had. A pump place called up and wanted the price of sodas dropped to $0.50. I asked my employee what we were charging. $0.55 he told me. I informed them that it was not possible. I had spent at least $1000 over the years having them repair my well pump. They called the next week and had us remove our soda machine. This business was 200 yards from my business. No problem. When I needed a pump installed on another property, I spent my $3000 someplace else. When a neighbor needed pumps for two wells they dug, I made sure they used someone else. Loyalty only works for me if it goes both ways.

That nickel they were crying about cost the at least $10,000 in business.

[urban_racoons]

Originally Posted by crazycal

I don't think you want to leave a dead battery connected to a new one. Pretty sure it will suck juice out of the new battery.

Ok - yeah I figured that but wasn't 100% sure. I'll see what I can do about disconnecting them but it's a serious pita - whoever designed the starter to sit in that particular location did not have my tool/skillset in mind.

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by crazycal

I don't think you want to leave a dead battery connected to a new one. Pretty sure it will suck juice out of the new battery.

He is correct.

Leaving a dead battery in the chain will drain the new battery, and the bus still wont start.

The dead battery's may be shorted out inside. You don't want them in the bus.

We see this all the time at the bus shop. One battery will die, and kill the second battery.

This is why we have converted most the 400 bus fleet to a single 8D battery VS two to four group 31's.

Nat

[The-Breeze]

Talking with Clint about the situation and he feels that the easiest fix for this is to connect an external air hose to the Schrader valve under the bus and fill up the tank until it releases the fail safe on air brakes and push or pull it back far enough to get to the batteries and then just pull on the emergency brake to stop it.

?????? comments ????????

[urban_racoons]

Yeah except mine has those stupid lucas-girling fake air brakes that use hydraulic instead of air to uncage the brakes.

[urban_racoons]

So I spent a bunch of yesterday hacking on this. Went out and got a group 31 and then proceeded to spend a pretty good amount of flailing getting to the starter terminals. I disconnected the battery cables from the positive and negative starter terminals and then attached the super beefy jumper cables I have from the new battery to the positive starter terminal (which is just a bolt) and to the frame (basically same place that I disconnected the dead battery ground cable from).

Then I realized (after turning key and nothing happening) that there's one more cable running from the dead batteries, which I believe is lower current and powers at least the ignition switch if not some more of the cabin electronics. I happen to have another pair of (very dinky) jumper cables, and this one thankfully happens to have a disconnect lead under the bus near the battery box, so I can pretty easily disconnect the dead battery cable and attach the positive jumper cable to the lead and the ground cable to the frame nearby.

So I turn the key halfway and all the electronics turn on. I'm getting pretty excited, thinking this might be it, and then I turn it to start and..... just a very quiet whine. Like I'm pretty certain that the starter wasn't engaging at all. I don't have the diagnostic manual on hand, but it describes the scenario fairly accurately and suggests double checking contacts to the starter.

The starter positive terminal is just a bolt, and I'm wondering if I'm not getting a good enough connection to the bolt with the jumper cables? Also there are a few other cables that are attached there with the standard eyelets. Would it make sense to go out and buy a short piece of battery cable with the standard eyelet disconnect and then bolt it into place so that it has better contact? It's extra confusing, because I've been using that same bolt to charge the dead batteries when they were still connected (both with car and with AC charger), so I know that it's the right terminal and that the bolt itself is conductive. I'm also wondering if it's possible I accidentally removed one of the wires that was supposed to be connected to that post. Digging around in there is a nightmare, and most of the cables go straight into this enormous bundle, so finding out where they go has been tricky.

I have a few backup plans, but I'm not in love with any of them:

- Try to cage the parking brakes and push. I'm not excited about figuring out how to cage the lucas girlings after doing some research, and I'd have to push the bus pretty much into the street in order to get to the battery box. If for some reason it decided not to start once I replaced the battery (being ornery or just having another mechanical issue), I'd be pretty up creek. I could maybe maybe tow it with my station wagon, but that feels pretty scary.

- I could cut a window into the battery box. From there I could disconnect each of the cables and then reattach them properly to the new battery. Then I'd have a bunch of good leads making contact and wouldn't have to worry about making bad jumper cable connections.

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by urban_racoons

Yeah except mine has those stupid lucas-girling fake air brakes that use hydraulic instead of air to uncage the brakes.

So get under the back with a wrench and back off your brake pots. It takes less than 5 min with a half inch wrench.

Other than cost, the lucas-girling brake system is the most fail safe hydraulic brake system you can get.
No other hydraulic brake system will actavate the rear brakes to bring you safely to a stop if you loose hydraulic brake pressure.


You won't get half the power you need using booster cables to connect the battery.

It needs to be connected by the battery cable lugs for good power transfer. Nat

[urban_racoons]

Ok dumb question time: what is a brake pot?

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by urban_racoons

Ok dumb question time: what is a brake pot?

Here's some reading on the subject: Ford B-700 Hyd E- Brake Question - School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums

This post has some diagrams: 1993 F700 Brake problems HELP PLEASE !!!!! - Page 2 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
This picture shows the parking brake switch I mentioned above (TW-11).


The two things to the farthest right in the pic.

Nat

[urban_racoons]

Awesome - thanks so much for the brake diagrams - I can definitely use those...

I ended up getting it started! Threw in one group 31, but Nat was right, jumper cables don't have enough contact to start it up. So I went and found a couple new battery cables (pretty short ones) and ended up having to run one through the firewall. The starter is super hard to get to, but I was able to get it in there.

So I started it up with the new battery sitting in the front passenger steps area. Definitely one of the hackier things I've ever done, but enough to clear the driveway wall and get out onto the street where I re-wire (properly) all the crap that I had just jury-rigged.

Totally worked out - thanks yall!

[EastCoastCB]

Glad it worked out!

[nat_ster]

Big thumbs up.

Nat