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Old 06-17-2015, 11:45 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Problems starting 1991 Ford B600

Haven't been on the site for a while. Apparently they've recycled my account :/, but I was the OP on this thread: http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f17/fo...sion-5293.html

The B600 has been sitting in my driveway for a few years now and the batteries are totally dead. It has 2 big 12v batteries (I'm not sure off the top of my head amp/hrs), and to make things totally #@$&'ed, there's a building in the way of being able to open the battery box and check on them, etc. I know that it's a stupid setup, but I have been known to do pretty stupid things.

The landlord has recently told us that they need us to move the bus to do some work on the driveway next week. So I've been trying to do whatever I can to get it started. I have a 1985 300td mercedes diesel station wagon, so I thought I'd try to jump the bus with my car. I got the biggest baddest cables I could find (they're really long, but they're amazingly beefy), and I connected the + end to the positive starter terminal on the bus and the - to the ground terminal of the starter, and then the other end to my car (I tried attaching the - to the frame and then to the actual battery). I set the car to a high idle and then let it sit like that for a while.

After about 20 mins I tried to start the bus. There was indeed power (cabin lights, etc turned on), but when I tried to start, I got the most timid starter sound. Some whirring and that clicking noise, but not nearly the giant exclamation of power that it normally requires to start up.

I had a similar situation a few years ago when we were camping somewhere and tried to start the bus and the starter barely cranked. We flailed for like a half hour before we took a closer look and saw that one of the batteries had become disconnected and we were just trying to start it on one battery.

Which makes me think that I'm just not getting enough current to the starter (I really don't want to think about replacing the starter....). I have a couple ideas, but I wanted to see what people thought, whether they were insane:

- Disconnect the dead batteries from the starter. Is it possible that they are so dead and unable to hold charge that they're essentially sucking current from the starter circuit? What would I do after I jump the bus though?

- Go and buy 2 new 12v starter batteries from autowhatever. They'd come fresh and charged and even though I can't really get to the batteries themselves, I could disconnect the dead ones and use the jump cables to start the bus. I'd then have to figure out what to do now that the bus was running, but I think I could at least move it far enough away to get to the battery box again. I sort of don't want to spend the $$ on 2 new batteries considering it's pretty much permanently parked and probably will remain so after the driveway work is finished.

- Buy one of those fancy jump start booster things. But it's essentially a big battery in a plastic box with jumper cables, so wouldn't it make more sense to just buy the batteries?

Random questions:

- What would happen if the bus was running, but the batteries were disconnected? All of the electrics would run off the alternator? Is there an issue with breaking the circuit like that?

- Is it possible that I just need to let the bus batteries charge for longer? What sort of fancy equipment would I need to find that out? Could I do it with just a normal digital multimeter?


Thanks!

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Old 06-18-2015, 05:26 AM   #2
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First of, I'd say ditch the two starter batteries and replace with one 8D with 1400+ CCA. Second, and if you can't get the new battery right away, Home Depot has a 40amp battery charger that's fully automatic.
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Old 06-18-2015, 06:27 AM   #3
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Id disagree.
if only starting it once in a while, I'd go with ONE group 31.
No sense in wasting money.
Can always add another.
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Old 06-18-2015, 01:48 PM   #4
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Should I be trying to disconnect the currently dead batteries? If I tried to use a brand new group 31 as a jump start battery, would I drain/waste it if I left the dead batteries in the electrical circuit?
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Old 06-18-2015, 02:22 PM   #5
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Yeah, I meant you'd need to pull the two dead ones and run just one good one to save buying two.
For how often you start yours, an $80 battery is all you need.
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Old 06-18-2015, 03:20 PM   #6
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yeah it's just that I made the particularly dumb decision to park it in such a manner that the battery box itself is inaccessible. I've gotta figure out how to disconnect them - the starter itself is super hard to reach and I really don't want to cut any battery/starter cables (although it might end up just coming to that...)
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Old 06-18-2015, 03:36 PM   #7
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I guess moving it first isn't an option??
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Old 06-18-2015, 03:50 PM   #8
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stupid b600 comes with these ridiculous parking brakes that are supposed to simulate air breaks (fail closed), so I don't think I can get them to open without starting it. Ah here's the thread on them:

http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f34/ho...b700-7066.html

Actually, reading that it doesn't seem too bad, maybe I could just release them and (very carefully) push it far enough to get to the battery box....
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Old 06-18-2015, 03:54 PM   #9
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Do that before you do something drastic like cutting on the battery leads!!

Hey where are you located?
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Old 06-18-2015, 04:04 PM   #10
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At the moment I'm in the SF bay area (Oakland). Rent is so expensive here that having an extra bedroom for our house for the last 3 years has probably saved us on the order of $500/room per month * 36 months >= $15k.

So I guess buying a $100 battery will probably be worth it. Looking at it again, I might not be able to push it far enough. How bad would cutting the battery cable really be? Couldn't I just repair it with some fancy connectors (like the battery leads) and a bunch of insulating material?

The starter on this thing is buried in probably the most difficult to access location - I dunno how I'm gonna get in there....
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Old 06-18-2015, 04:18 PM   #11
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Go buy a battery and a battery charger. Charge the batteries in bus for a day or two. Dragging the bus to work on batteries is a good idea. If ya drag the bus far enough, batteries may not be required. To keep your bateries charged, connect to a 24 hour time to 6 hours on and 6 hours off. My bus is always ready to go. Both 8d and group 31 batteries has a short waranty time of 18 months. My Cummins with an 855 cu in engine starts quickly with a couple 850 cca batteries for about 6 years. Frank in Idaho
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Old 06-18-2015, 05:28 PM   #12
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"battery charger" - is that something that would be powered by the new battery or by AC mains power?

Do you think it's worth trying to charge the dead batteries on the bus? Do you think they would eventually hold charge?
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Old 06-18-2015, 05:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urban_racoons View Post
"battery charger" - is that something that would be powered by the new battery or by AC mains power?
Shore power. I mentioned the one that I use this morning-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooternj View Post
Second, and if you can't get the new battery right away, Home Depot has a 40amp battery charger that's fully automatic.
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Old 06-18-2015, 06:48 PM   #14
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First of, I'd say ditch the two starter batteries and replace with one 8D with 1400+ CCA. Second, and if you can't get the new battery right away, Home Depot has a 40amp battery charger that's fully automatic.
I agree. I would not waste my time with crappy group 31 battery's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Id disagree.
if only starting it once in a while, I'd go with ONE group 31.
No sense in wasting money.
Can always add another.
Buying a battery that is at the minimum power needed is the best way to kill a battery in short order.

A single 8D will outlast anything else on the market, hands down.

The less frequent you start you bus, the More you need a 8D vs two Group 31's.

Group 31 battery are like light trucks. They look good, and get the same job done as a big rig. But only for a short time when being worked hard.
This is due the way they are manufactured. Group 31's are made disposable, 8D's are the work horses of the battery world.

Black and Decker make the best low buck charger. I have had two and love them still.
Amazon.com: Black & Decker VEC1093DBD Smart Battery 40/20/10/4 Amp Battery Charger: Automotive

Also be sure to disconnect your battery from the bus when not in use for long periods of time.

Nat
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Old 06-18-2015, 08:02 PM   #15
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The 8d is totally overkill and unnecessary. the guy starts the bus infrequently. Its in southern california.
The 8D packs a PUNCH, but they also give up quickly. 2 31's is MORE starting power from the same footprint.

I drove my bus 800 miles on one 31. That one 31 started the bus in Kentucky during a terrible winter. It was around 10 degrees that day. There were icicles in the bus.
For moving this guy's bus, why not just get an $80 battery??

Real bus fleet discussion about batteries-
http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/...TOPIC_ID=34841
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Old 06-18-2015, 09:54 PM   #16
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Interestingly, the CAT and B&D chargers have the same feature set, and the same manual — or at least good chunks of them are word-for-word identical. I would say that they're the same internals; the packaging is very different, and the CAT one has a much nicer, more modern display, but it looks like they're the same thing under the hood.
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Old 06-18-2015, 11:57 PM   #17
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Interestingly, the CAT and B&D chargers have the same feature set, and the same manual — or at least good chunks of them are word-for-word identical. I would say that they're the same internals; the packaging is very different, and the CAT one has a much nicer, more modern display, but it looks like they're the same thing under the hood.
Good to know.

Thanks.

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Old 06-19-2015, 01:27 PM   #18
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Maybe I'm missing something in this thread, but have you tried charging the batteries overnight first? You mentioned that you connected your Mercedes for 20 minutes, but that won't put much charge in those big batteries.
If I were in that situation I would connect a battery charger to the positive and negative leads on the starter motor (since it will have a direct connection to the batteries, unless a battery disconnect switch has been installed) overnight and try starting in the morning. It's worth trying before throwing money at new batteries, unless you are absolutely sure that these batteries are fully toasted.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:43 PM   #19
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Thanks jazty. I went out and got the CAT battery charger from home depot. Attached them to the bus and started to charge. Within a few minutes, the lcd indicated a "bad battery" state (or whatever that was supposed to mean). It comes with a "reconditioner" function, so I figured it couldn't hurt to leave that on overnight and see how things progress tomorrow. The home depot return policy is pretty lenient, so we'll see...

The fallback plan is to get a group 31 and or this: CAT 1000-Amp Pro Portable Jump Starter-CJ3000 - The Home Depot

It's a little tricky because disconnecting the current starter batteries isn't going to be super fun, but I'm pretty confident it will eventually go. The bus is supposed to be moved by Monday, so wish me luck and any more ideas that you might have....
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:57 PM   #20
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I got my first bus home on regular car sized battery.
If all you need to do is start it a time or two, you could probably use just about any battery.
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