Tired of getting stuck- crazy 4wd conversion idea

dalez · 11-30-2016, 03:24 PM

My current bus is a '84 International 84 pax FE w/ dt466. I've got a (low quality) rv conversion in it, and take it to outdoor events/festivals as well as living in it full time. With the current bus, 3/4 times I go 'offroad' with it, I get STUCK. I'm not an inexperienced offroad driver, I used to take my 81 Buick Lesabre mudding and never got it stuck, but the nose-heavy bus SINKS on even slightly soft soil, and as soon as the front wheels are even slightly sunk the rear has zero traction. I've even gotten stuck on wet grass when the front wheels sank one inch into softish slightly damp soil. So far I've been lucky enough to get pulled out by a tractor or 4wd jeep (that was hilarious), but I wont always be. And sometimes, we have to leave the event in a hurry (river floods) so there's no waiting around.

The lady and I want to get a longer RE for our next conversion, for the additional space all around and for the 'closer to an RV' look when taking it to RV parks and the like. I'm hoping the additional engine weight on the rear wheels help, but I fear it's not enough. Four wheel drive busses are about as common as unicorns.

So my idea - since the RE bus doesnt have an oil pan in the way of a front diff, swap out the front solid axle for a driven steer axle off a MD truck, preferably with a very short ratio. Just aft of the axle, mount up a manual transmission powered by a giant forklift electric motor. Run a pair of cables from the shifter to a lever up front. I'll already have a very powerful bank of Lithium house batteries to power the motor onboard. I'd expect ~30hp continuous and much higher peak, with GOBS of torque. It wont have the oompf to do much at high speeds, but for getting the bus moving from a standing start on soft soil, I think it'll get the tires turning.

Thoughts?

Brad_SwiftFur · 11-30-2016, 04:22 PM

Just stick an ARB air locker in the drive axle, that should help.

dalez · 11-30-2016, 04:24 PM

Would you believe at least one of those times I was stuck, I was spinning both back wheels? I guess they were almost equally slick.

Clayton · 11-30-2016, 04:31 PM

Get tire chains. Easy.....

Brad_SwiftFur · 11-30-2016, 04:42 PM

See if you can put some wider front tires on to help spread the weight.

dalez · 11-30-2016, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

See if you can put some wider front tires on to help spread the weight.

I'm not sure how much wider would really fit, and feel like a ~20% increase in contact patch isnt going to help when the current tires slice through the ground like pizza cutters. On a trip I took in 2015 it had rained on the property 3 times the week before, the moment my tires left the gravel I sank 8 inches and only maintained forward momentum long enough to settle into my parking spot via inertia. The soil in FRONT of the front tires was pushed up almost a foot. The river flooded 4 days later to boot, I only made it out thanks to a timely rescue via a large tractor, 30 minutes later my campsite was literally 6ft under water! And several of the places I like to visit are flood-prone river adjacent, so I'm looking for a pretty solid solution.

cadillackid · 11-30-2016, 05:37 PM

what tires are you running on the back? many people use the same rear tires as they do steer tires... im using uniroyal RD30's as my drive tires in the DEV bus.. you can hear them on the road, however ive had the bus in rainy grass / mud where my steers started to sink and those drives dug in and pulled...

Uniroyal Truck Tire Selector | Uniroyal Truck Tires

-Christopher

Brad_SwiftFur · 11-30-2016, 06:52 PM

I'm a driver by profession, and it's been my experience that empty or lightly loaded trucks and buses "get stuck" a lot easier than loaded ones. The stiff springs and suspension make it easy for one wheel to spin on uneven ground, and the lack of weight makes it easy to spin on top of soft ground. Heavy weights will push the drive tires down for better grip.

I've driven big trucks out in fields and pastures, and could 'feel' the tires sinking and (trying to) spin when empty. When loaded, the tires would dig in a bit, but with far less sinking and spinning.

cadillackid · 11-30-2016, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

I'm a driver by profession, and it's been my experience that empty or lightly loaded trucks and buses "get stuck" a lot easier than loaded ones. The stiff springs and suspension make it easy for one wheel to spin on uneven ground, and the lack of weight makes it easy to spin on top of soft ground. Heavy weights will push the drive tires down for better grip.

I've driven big trucks out in fields and pastures, and could 'feel' the tires sinking and (trying to) spin when empty. When loaded, the tires would dig in a bit, but with far less sinking and spinning.

THIS!!

totally.. same concept of why many with pickup trucks toss a bunch of weight in the bed for winter...
-Christopher

Oldmopars · 11-30-2016, 07:28 PM

Sounds like you need to put some solar panels on the roof and these: https://www.amazon.com/Trojan-T105-R...ds=trojan+t105 under the bed in the back. It would cost you way less than your plan and give you enough battery power to boondock for a month. The added weight (800lbs) would give you the traction you need to get where you want to go. WIN WIN!

cadillackid · 11-30-2016, 07:44 PM

you cant put those batteries indoors in a closed compartment.. unless you want cold feeties at night venting the area under the bed to the outside..
-Christopher

dalez · 11-30-2016, 09:09 PM

Well I had the back of the bus loaded with camping gear floor to ceiling, but it wasnt lead either.... How much better will a rear engine bus do offroad? Anyone got experience with those on wet muddy fields? Maybe throw a locker at it?

Iceni John · 11-30-2016, 09:18 PM

Buy a Crown or Gillig tandem (three axles) bus. Unlike tag axle buses, both rear axles are driven, and there's an inter-axle differential lock to lock both axles together on soft ground. Then if you have eight proper lugged traction tires on the back you'll get out of most situations. Crown and others also used to offer sanders, and automatic tire chains are another option. Otherwise just put regular tire chains on the drive wheels, and slightly deflate the front tires to increase their footprint (but remember to reinflate them before driving on the road).

A while ago on the Crown Coach Junkies forum we discussed the merits and practicality of having a ten-wheel drive Crown. My suggestion was to have hydrostatic motors for each front wheel, powered by a large hydraulic pump on the engine. It would be simple to have them freewheel by means of valves when driving at more than a few miles an hour. No complicated mechanical driveline and gearboxes needed, just a pair of hoses. Lots of low-speed vehicles use hydraulic drives like this. Simple.

Mind you, it would be prudent to not get into these situations in the first place! If it looks iffy, get out and test the ground first before driving on it. Prevention is always easier than cure.

John

cowlitzcoach · 12-01-2016, 04:03 AM

You may just want to carry along some sheets of plywood. Before you head off of the road and head out over the grass put the plywood down where you are going to park. Keep the hammer down until you have the front tires on the plywood. Spreading the weight that far out will not likely result in you getting stuck.

As for getting rear engine buses or 10-wheeler Crowns stuck--BTDT more than once with both RE buses and 10-wheeler Crowns. There is not much you can do once you slow down and the tires start to sink down. To be fair, I only got them stuck when the buses were empty at home and I was moving them around the yard. But when the drive tires on a Gillig RE are sunk down halfway to the rims you are not going to get it out without a lot of help. And I can tell you from my experience that when they are stuck that bad putting traction chains on only make the holes deeper and muddier.

DoubleO7 · 12-01-2016, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

And I can tell you from my experience that when they are stuck that bad putting traction chains on only make the holes deeper and muddier.

YEP, chains, awd, 4x4 more aggressive tires, lockers, etc. are all great to a point.
After that point they only help you get stuck deeper and betterer.

And on a bus, as soon as the bottom of the axles (front or year) start pushing dirt, your screwed for good.

glenn bell · 12-01-2016, 06:56 AM

Mount this to your front bumper

DP Military Winch Hyd.45,000 lbs With Tank and Operators Controls Hoist Rigging | eBay

Warning! your tires might sink in hot pavement.

EastCoastCB · 12-01-2016, 08:32 AM

My 40 footer FE does pretty well on loose sand and riding around cow pastures, for what it is at least.
I got is sorta stuck once but I got it out easily enough with the old rocking method.

dalez · 12-01-2016, 08:37 AM

So the only solution is to put on 5ft tall 2.5ft wide military tires on a 6x6 truck and put an RV body on top, got it.

(The winch is a neat idea, until I pull a tree out of the ground on top of myself. I've seen the ground so wet out there a light breeze pushed one over)

cadillackid · 12-01-2016, 09:06 AM

of course the real harm in getting stuck is damaging your transmission.. whether 545, 643, 2000,3000 the torque converter is making a TON of heat when trying to get unstuck..

so if you do hang it up.. dont keep banging on it forever without leeting the trans cool down...

if its a stick, god help the poor clutch
-Christopher

EastCoastCB · 12-01-2016, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

of course the real harm in getting stuck is damaging your transmission.. whether 545, 643, 2000,3000 the torque converter is making a TON of heat when trying to get unstuck..

so if you do hang it up.. dont keep banging on it forever without leeting the trans cool down...

if its a stick, god help the poor clutch
-Christopher

For sure. Gotta go easy on the transmission.

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