Towing Capability with A 40' Coach???

[DesertMax]

Hi Guys, I'm out of Oregon and grew up on San Diego. Currently in a Lance Truck Camper on a 2005 Ford Super Duty standard cab with a 6.0L Diesel.
I have travelled south to attend the big January Quartzsite show in hope of finding a bus to buy and am still working out the details.
First thing is to sell the camper and then if I find probably a Thomas and still debating the Cat motor, I would like to flatbed trailer my truck behind it and of course this would be an empty truck.
What I am interesting in learning is overall which coach to look at, where to find them in Arizona, which engine.. (I understand there is much chatter about the down side of the V8 CAT (or V8 Diesels in general) so perhaps the I6 is the best choice???) and the towing potential of our 40 foot buses...
Any assistance dearly appreciated up front!

Found this string ::: http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f13/to...l-bus-194.html

[BlackJohn]

Welcome and good questions. I'm wondering the same about trailering my Suburban. I have an old happy Cat3116 with 5 sp standard. Trailer is long and wondering more about 2" tongue capabilities. How long for that much weight is permissible I guess is what I need to know.
There is no way to know how good any particular engine will be. There aren't too many Cat owners here and the rest beg to differ on it's quality and reliability. If you look after it, it will look after you. The I6 is far easier to maintain than the v8's from a standpoint of me being able to work on it.
If I was you I'd drive a few different buses to get a better idea of suiting your needs.
Good luck,

John

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Welcome and good questions. I'm wondering the same about trailering my Suburban. I have an old happy Cat3116 with 5 sp standard. Trailer is long and wondering more about 2" tongue capabilities. How long for that much weight is permissible I guess is what I need to know.
There is no way to know how good any particular engine will be. There aren't too many Cat owners here and the rest beg to differ on it's quality and reliability. If you look after it, it will look after you. The I6 is far easier to maintain than the v8's from a standpoint of me being able to work on it.
If I was you I'd drive a few different buses to get a better idea of suiting your needs.
Good luck,

John

im not out here to start a flame war.. however regardless of what the cat-non-owners say.. i havent seen any here that ARE cat owners having issues with blown up motors, coolant in the oil, or dropped lifters.. I own 2 navistars and am happy with them.. however Im going to bet that your 3116 is gonna take anything you want to give it within reason.. CAT's off-road motors are often used and abused and just run.. all that off-road equipment, idling for hours, stuck in mud being floored to get out.. dirt and dust everywhere.. the Only issue i see is that people state the cat motors cost more to fix and parts are a little tougher to get if they do in fact break.. but i see nothing to support that the cat motors break any more than anything else out there...

our busses are mechanical and sometimes electro-mechanical.. anything 'COULD' break at any time..

I really am not the keenest on B10 and B50 marks because user error isnt removed from the equation.. everyone knows if you over-heat a DT-466 even once. it has a decent chance of breaking.. to the point of requiring internal repairs.. we also know there are DT-466s out there with 300k+ going strong.. and some people have perfectly good ones but blow them up due to their own neglect or negligence or accident that isnt the engine';s fault..

my T-444E was over-heated at 42000 miles.. was it hurt? no way to know as I wasnt there when it happened (the computer stored the event)...

in my opinion for heavy towing and in general pounding-on. the I6's will hold up better than the V8's. the same thing has been proven in the past with people beating on Gas V8s to find they dont last as long as their I6 counterparts when lugged, over-loaded, and run-hard.. it kind of makes sense when you look at the main and rod bearing structure of an I-engine vs a V-engine. to me the idea that the pistons all go straight up and down vs "lay" by gravity on one side of a cylinder wall also..

that-said the V-8 in my little shorty bus is oerfectly fine, convenient and easy to work on with a tilt-forward front clip.. no doghouse in the interior.. perfect for a daily-driver shorty. but I wouldnt tow a 20' toy hauler behind it.
-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

I still think you're a good bit overzealous on that 446's overheating thing.
Mine went WAY high going up Monteagle. But it took it like a champ.
It was definitely overheated, so I pulled over and idled it for twenty minutes while I used the restroom.
Maybe the newer ones are less tolerant than the old ones?

[cadillackid]

they seem to be... most of the 466 over-temp coolant dumps seem to be 466E's vs mechanicals.. same with DT-360s.. i dont see that issue much at all with them.. (of course there never was an E of it).. the mechanical 466 seems to be much more stout
-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

they seem to be... most of the 466 over-temp coolant dumps seem to be 466E's vs mechanicals.. same with DT-360s.. i dont see that issue much at all with them.. (of course there never was an E of it).. the mechanical 466 seems to be much more stout
-Christopher

Wouldn't surprise me.
That mechanical 466 I had, the temp didn't budge unless you went up Monteagle!
And I wouldn't have overheated it had I shifted down a gear, but I'm from FL lol. I'm SOOOO not used to driving up and down grades.

[cadillackid]

ive run monteagle before its a big one.. if you dont have a fan ROARIN by 210 on a DT then something is amuck... last time i ran it in my DEV bus. it was 50 outside and I had a fan screamin as i hit about 200 degrees. and it stayed on till i reached the top..
-Christopher

[BlackJohn]

Christopher, I do enjoy your frank and honest opinion of any subject that comes up in these forums. You have walked the walk so to speak in both electronics and engines etc. Your knowledge has helped so may others form their own opinions and helped them troubleshoot.
Thanks for all your input.

John

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Christopher, I do enjoy your frank and honest opinion of any subject that comes up in these forums. You have walked the walk so to speak in both electronics and engines etc. Your knowledge has helped so may others form their own opinions and helped them troubleshoot.
Thanks for all your input.

John

Totally, man.
I think we ALL know how much Chris knows what he's talkin about. the guy's iq has to be some insanely high number!
I may disagree with him on this or that sometimes, but he knows me and roxy love him!

[cadillackid]

I have no issues when people disagree or prove me wrong.. i like to learn like all of us here.. I talk to LOTS of people in lots of places.. I love to see and hear about experiences and stories of people out in the world. I have friends in many walks of life as well.. so its awesome to learn about their experiences.. consgtruction guys' experiences with trucks, diggers, buckets, etc.. school board experiences with various busses are a Huge resource.. as they are in the thick of it...

im a jump in and get my hands dirty kind of guy.. both in my business and pleasure adventures..

thos forum has been one of , if not the Best resource forum ive been on.. we have FAR LESS bickering and Ego's here than on other vehicle-related forums ive been on.. meeting skoolies in person is even better.. its an awesome time whenever I go to a meetup or a fellow skoolie passes through town and I get to hang out...

people here are Do-ers.. wanting to know if your bus can tow because you want to tow vs just debating it.. wanting to know what engine last longest because you plan to drive your bus all over creation and back, vs start a flame when you have no plans to even own a bus. (yeah the jeep forum is worst for those trying to slam on builds when they dont even own a jeep let alone turn a wrench on one)..

nearly every skoolie is a resto-mod of some sort.. so no flames from those who run you down for "not keeping it original".. because all of us are making some type of custom build whether our bus is 90% stock or built from the ground up custom..

great group of folks here and KUDOS to all here!
-Christopher

[M1031A1]

Originally Posted by DesertMax

Hi Guys, I'm out of Oregon and grew up on San Diego. Currently in a Lance Truck Camper on a 2005 Ford Super Duty standard cab with a 6.0L Diesel.
I have travelled south to attend the big January Quartzsite show in hope of finding a bus to buy and am still working out the details.
First thing is to sell the camper and then if I find probably a Thomas and still debating the Cat motor, I would like to flatbed trailer my truck behind it and of course this would be an empty truck.
What I am interesting in learning is overall which coach to look at, where to find them in Arizona, which engine.. (I understand there is much chatter about the down side of the V8 CAT (or V8 Diesels in general) so perhaps the I6 is the best choice???) and the towing potential of our 40 foot buses...
Any assistance dearly appreciated up front!

Found this string ::: http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f13/to...l-bus-194.html

DM,

I ADORE my V8 3208 Cat engine!!! It's the largest engine they ever put in a school bus. It's meant to be run hard and over a long period of time (as in don't turn it off at all during the day, keep her toasty warm). We moved from Texas to Kansas without narry a hint of a problem. We added a transmission temperature gauge and a pyrometer just to be sure we stayed within tolerances. That 10.6L engine ran like a CHAMP!!!! I accelerated up hills just to see if HF could do it. She did it with style! She'd pass semis!!!! The look on trucker's faces was soooo worthwhile!!!!! So, don't worry about the "V8 scare". If you're patient, know what you're looking for, it will be so worth it to get that special Cat powered Thomas!!!! We are completely enjoying ours!!!!!

Hope this helps.

M

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by M1031A1

DM,

I ADORE my V8 3208 Cat engine!!! It's the largest engine they ever put in a school bus. It's meant to be run hard and over a long period of time (as in don't turn it off at all during the day, keep her toasty warm). We moved from Texas to Kansas without narry a hint of a problem. We added a transmission temperature gauge and a pyrometer just to be sure we stayed within tolerances. That 10.6L engine ran like a CHAMP!!!! I accelerated up hills just to see if HF could do it. She did it with style! She'd pass semis!!!! The look on trucker's faces was soooo worthwhile!!!!! So, don't worry about the "V8 scare". If you're patient, know what you're looking for, it will be so worth it to get that special Cat powered Thomas!!!! We are completely enjoying ours!!!!!

Hope this helps.

M

Hardly the largest, plenty of Crowns running 14 liter Cummins!

[dan-fox]

I don't doubt that Cats are as good, as reliable, as anything else, And, never having owned one, I have no first hand experience with parts prices. I do get a little leery of vendors who require lock-in; I'm much more an open-source kind of guy. And the whole wet-sleeve-block thing (which you guys taught me about!) sort of seals it for me. Cummins or Int'l. No need to look further.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

I have ran manny a piece of heavy equipment with several engine and tranny combos and to this day a lot of them still use and abuse the 545.
As an 8.2NA/545 with 6.50 rear gears owner.
The real question to be asked in my mind is what the specific bus you are looking at was built for spec. Or specific wise from the school district that bought the bus brand new?
Mine wasn't a mountain or activity bus and was built specifically to my counties spec. For longevity on a stop and go route. And as an 86 sold in 2006 with full records it has and can give me many more trouble free years at 49mph Without any problems?

[Robin97396]

You can't drive 55? It's almost a song title.

[Gdog 5651]

As a very long time truck mechanic and until recent retirement 10 year fleet manager over fleet of midrange trucks I found that overall costs on Cats i6 and v8 was not much different until the 3116 became the infamous 3126 it seems as none of the manufacturers made the the transition to E motors very well and in the Big Smokers still not.

[DesertMax]

Regarding my bus project and who I am, I am 69 years old and have had some hard knocks. I am a professional multi-instrumentalist musician songwriter who has had to date: 2 heart attacks one of which was an open bypass just this past January a year ago now almost as well as COPD lung issues all of which caused me to loose my 40 year family home where I cared for my parents before they passed.
All I want out of life is to work in my recording studio which now is in pieces in a storage area. I am dam tired of moving my studio around and have built many studios only to have to tear them down and start again. This brings us to the bus. My bus may not even move that much but I am a full time RVer so some travelling would be nice and of course I want to make a good choice on motor and drive drain. I have a complete design for my last recording studio build and it will be in the back of a 40 foot bus. This is why I came to this site and you all have been absolutely great with your knowledge base however I do need to find a way to understand the engine vernacular so I can make an informed purchase... Thanks again to all :::
My music is here https://soundcloud.com/morgan-chambers-10

[Robin97396]

You've got to see this from our side too. It's appreciated when anyone comes here before they buy an eyesore bus. Anything can be fixed, but it often takes extraordinary amounts of time and money to fix the wrong bus.

You know what you want more or less. It's good when we can help someone find the right bus that works well for them. Its to much work to fix up the wrong bus.

Welcome to the forum. Have you found any buses yet?

[Mr4btTahoe]

I'll add my 2 cents worth...

As for towing capability... any bus should be able to handle pulling the weight of the super duty on a standard flat deck trailer (assuming its not a 450 or 550). With a 350, you are probably in the neighborhood of 10k including the trailer. Buses are medium/heavy duty platforms built to work. It won't have an issue pulling that. My old boss has a 50' (roughly.. probably in the mid 40s) pusher (luxury motor coach) powered by a big cummins. He pulls a double decker car hauler (same height as the coach).. lift inside with 2 cars and his tools, all over the country. I'd venture to say his bus loaded out is well over 30k lbs.. trailer loaded is probably pushing 15-20k.

As far as engine choices... ALL of them have their known quirks/issues. Personally, I'm a fan of all things mechanical as they are typically much easier and cheaper to work on. My shorty is powered by an IH 7.3 NA IDI... same engine is in my '90 crew cab F350 (with an ATS turbo system)... same engine is in my cousins early 90s 5 ton dump truck. They are notorious for lacking power but will do work all day without breaking a sweat. Can literally replace the entire injection system (injection pump, injectors, etc) for under $700 with quality parts. Most of the big mechanical Cats and DTs are solid platforms as long as they have been maintained well. That will make or break just about anything. I've seen engines fail with less then 100k on the clock... I've seen the same go for 3/4 million miles and never have the heads pulled. Maintenance is everything. Records would be important... and knowing exactly what to look for (a bit of mechanical knowledge) would be very helpful. If cheap things like hoses, belts, etc.. have been neglected.. its a bad sign for the rest of the maintenance.

Anyways... don't know if thats much help or not.

[DesertMax]

Mr 4, thanks for that.. Yes, my truck is n F-250 Super Duty and probably relatively lite as it only has 2 doors and not much in the way of extras. Just that 6.0 engine which is running great!