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Old 04-06-2015, 09:27 AM   #1
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Wheel types: Dayton and Budd. Pros, cons and other info

G'day.
This conversation occurred in another thread recently and I think that it's good information to have easily accessible.

Original thread: I am thinking about this one

Firstly, this is a Budd:


And this is a Dayton:


Please note that no modern Dayton wheels use split-rims! If you have a Dayton wheel with a tire that requires an inner tube you may have split-rims. If you're running tubeless then you don't.

Dayton wheels (spoke wheels; wagon wheels)
  • Pros:
    • tires can be changed with a breaker bar, torque wrench and something on the ground to check trueness of wheels;
    • The donut shaped and lighter rim makes it easier to lift and move a spare into place (though still freakin' heavy);
    • usually 5 or 6 lug nuts to remove;
    • they look gnarly.
  • Cons:
    • takes some work to get them true;
    • can slip if not tightened properly;
    • it's possible that some shops will charge more to work on them (just a guess);
    • they look gnarly (this one is obviously subjective )
  • Other info:
    • recommended dry torque of 200-260ft.lbs for 3/4"-10 studs; 150-175ft.lbs for 5/8"-11 studs.
Budd wheels:
  • Pros:
    • Always true (unless damaged);
    • clean looking;
    • all heavy-duty shops can work on them.
  • Cons:
    • Spare + rim is effin' heavy;
    • 3/4" drive impact wrench required to remove lug nuts;
    • 6-10 lug nuts to remove;
  • Other info:
    • Recommended dry torque of 450-500ft.lbs.

I did my research on the subject before purchasing my bus, but - at the time - didn't really care one way or the other. In the end I'm glad I have Daytons since I can deal with them myself; whether on the road or in the driveway. I've had most of the wheels off at one point or another and put them all back. They aren't very difficult to install, though I can understand how a fleet would be more efficient with Budds. For me, an extra 15 minutes isn't a big deal. That time would add up for a fleet.

These two pamphlets provides torque information and tightening patterns:
Webb Torque Specifications
Wheel and Tire Specifications

Dayton tire installation video, courtesy of PDBreske:
New tire installation on Dayton wheels

Anyone have anything to add?

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Old 04-06-2015, 09:34 AM   #2
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Great post.

Thanks Man.

Nat
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:48 AM   #3
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All good points there. I run Daytons as well, and once you get the knack to aligning them, they really are simple to do.

One problem though, and I hope you can change it in your post, is that nut torque, especially with Dayton's, is subjective to the size of the threads used. 200-260 is for 3/4-10 threads. The studs on mine are 5/8-11, which requires way less torque(ask me how I found that out ). Anyways here is a good page that lists nut torque and other interesting wheel tidbits. http://www.firsttruck.ca/wiki/Wheels...-And-Specs.pdf

I'd think if a moderator could make this a sticky, that'd be a great idea.
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Old 04-06-2015, 12:01 PM   #4
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Huh.. I'll be damned... I didn't know they came in 5/8-11. I will amend that information if a moderator can unlock the post so I can edit it.
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Old 04-06-2015, 01:13 PM   #5
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edit away!
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Old 04-06-2015, 01:24 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by claydbal View Post
edit away!
I was hoping to get edit abilities on post #1. Possible?
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Old 04-06-2015, 03:22 PM   #7
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You have laid out all of the main pros and cons for both types of wheels.

I would add one other pro for the Budd wheels.

If you have a bus that the top speed is lower than you would like, you can go to larger wheels with Budd wheels but you can't with Dayton wheels.

On more than a couple of buses I swapped the 22.5" wheels for 24.5" wheels. I gained about 5 MPH at the top end and it didn't change how well the buses climbed hills. On another bus that was really pokey on the hills I swapped the 24.5" wheels for 22.5" wheels and got a little better gradability.

Of course when you do that you need to make sure the weight rating of the tire is sufficient to carry the load whether you are going up or down in tire size.
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Old 04-06-2015, 03:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach View Post
You have laid out all of the main pros and cons for both types of wheels.

I would add one other pro for the Budd wheels.

If you have a bus that the top speed is lower than you would like, you can go to larger wheels with Budd wheels but you can't with Dayton wheels.

On more than a couple of buses I swapped the 22.5" wheels for 24.5" wheels. I gained about 5 MPH at the top end and it didn't change how well the buses climbed hills. On another bus that was really pokey on the hills I swapped the 24.5" wheels for 22.5" wheels and got a little better gradability.

Of course when you do that you need to make sure the weight rating of the tire is sufficient to carry the load whether you are going up or down in tire size.
Very good addition! There is still a bit of wiggle room for Daytons since the tire size goes up to 12r22.5 for 22.5" rims, but you certainly can't jump all the way up to 24.5" wheels.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:47 PM   #9
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If you get a really new bus, you might run into hub piloted bud type wheels, they have the lug nuts with built in washers, not the standard tapered lug nuts
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:20 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazty View Post
I was hoping to get edit abilities on post #1. Possible?
oops, try again!
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Old 04-07-2015, 04:35 PM   #11
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I thought buds were the type that hold on the inner dually, and the fronts are called hub piloted?
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:19 PM   #12
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hub piloted are also called "metric" wheels sometimes since they have been common in europe for a long time, if you have hub piloted wheels, both rear duals would be held on by the lugnuts, not by the lug nut/cap nut that buds use on duals, whic means no taking off your outside dual by running the inside up on a board
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:01 AM   #13
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Stud piloted wheels have chamfers in the lug holes into which the shoulder of the lug nuts meet to align the wheel. On the rear duals the inner wheel is held on by a thimble with a square drive on the end and the outer wheel is held on by a nut that goes over the thimble.

Hub piloted wheels fit very snugly onto the hub and are held on by single lug nuts with washers built into them.
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:03 AM   #14
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And here is a visual aid:




Source: Hub Pilot vs. Stud Pilot Buy Truck Wheels
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Old 04-08-2015, 09:24 AM   #15
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Funny, I remember looking at the bus I bought and looking at the heavy wheels and thinking that I could replace them at some point with good looking aluminum truck rims. That ain't happening! And I have kinda come to like them anyway.
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Old 08-07-2018, 06:57 AM   #16
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Just a note on "split rims" there are three types that I know of.

1. a real split rim, this is an older type very rare to see them today. The outer ring is one piece, and the rim is actually split usually at the valve stem. The rim is sqeezed enough to let the outer ring off .

2. the commen split rim, the rim itself is one piece, with an outer ring that is split.

3. three piece rim, the rim itself is one piece, the outer ring is one piece, and has another smaller ring that sets into a groove between the rim and the outer ring.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Just a note on "split rims" there are three types that I know of.

1. a real split rim, this is an older type very rare to see them today. The outer ring is one piece, and the rim is actually split usually at the valve stem. The rim is sqeezed enough to let the outer ring off .

2. the commen split rim, the rim itself is one piece, with an outer ring that is split.

3. three piece rim, the rim itself is one piece, the outer ring is one piece, and has another smaller ring that sets into a groove between the rim and the outer ring.

1. Funny story--I used to own a 1951 IHC dumptruck that had Dayton spoke wheels that were the old style split rims. I got caught up in the annual DOT emphasis patrol the first week of June one year. The weight cop checked the truck out for working lights (for once all of them seemed to have worked that day), emergency brake (the hand brake actually held hard enough to pass the test), the horn honked, and the wipers wiped. And then he told me I was red flagged because I had a broken wheel. I asked him what he was talking about. He said there was a crack in my front wheel. I told him I didn't. He said I did and it was pretty bad. I told him I didn't. He said get out and look. I said okay and showed him a real split rim. He had never seen one before so I showed him on the outside dual what it looked like on the rest of the wheel. He didn't seem to like the idea but since the wheels were original to the truck he sent me on my way.

2. If you have to have split rims, these are the style to have.

3. The three piece rims are really, really hard to get apart. They are especially difficult if they have ever seen salt. The inner rim and outer ring rust together making it nearly impossible to shove them apart far enough to get the split ring out. Getting it all back together again safely is another struggle. We finally got one apart and spent way too much time cleaning it all up and repainting it. When we aired it up it blew apart. When a split rim blows, even with less than 30 PSI, it is rather impressive and reinforces the need to always use a cage when airing up a split rim.

If you have the old style like #1 or the three piece like #3 I would ditch them and get tubeless wheels. Even if you have the #2 style I think you will find the cost of the tube and mounting a tube type wheel is not that much different than getting a good used tubeless wheel.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:14 AM   #18
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That is a funny story. As for me I have done so many split rims if I never work on another it will be to soon.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach View Post
When a split rim blows, even with less than 30 PSI, it is rather impressive and reinforces the need to always use a cage when airing up a split rim.
So, are split rims the only ones that need to be aired up inside a cage? Is it a good idea to do that with tubeless tires as well?


I've knelt beside car tires to air them up on and off the vehicle my whole life; we all have. Is this a bad idea/disaster waiting to happen on an 11R22.5 as opposed to a 14" P275 on a Caravan (f'rinstance)?



I've never dealt with these tires (yet) and I'm thinking about the DIY side-of-the-road scenario. It's at least possible to carry enough stuff to change out a tire, but not possible to carry a tire cage. If you need the tire cage, just sliding it under the bus to air it up is probably just as stupid as standing beside it.
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:05 AM   #20
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when I air up any tire im away from the sidewall.. for my busses i have a clip on air chuck with a built in gauge and a 3 foot hose.. I crouch away from the sidewall.. the only time im near that sidewall is clipping the chuck on...



because of a Foul-up with Les Schwabb tires in portlans oregon, I have 4 drives on nice steel 22.5" rims.. and my 2 steers are on the original 20" front rims.. Grrrr. these guys are a real piece of work.. anyway all are stud pilot mount. the 2 fronts are locking-ring rims..



if anyone wants 2 brand new 9R20 tires on lock-ring rims with 10 bolt budd(stud pilot) id be glad to sell them! I want 11R's all the way around on that bus.. (1978 Loadstar)..


-Christopher
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