Which Would you Pick?

[o1marc]

What makes you think the pre 04 DT466E is any different than the 04+?

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Ghaniba

Agreed!!! So how is it to shift? Anything I need to know? Is it crazy different than a car for shifting? I've read things like - must start in 2nd gear, can't hold clutch in, some have to double clutch every movement, no syncros to reverse, bla bla bla -- What can you share of your experience of living with it? is 4th and 5th gear a very close ratio? -- Obviously, with a different engine AND a probably a different rear ratio, actual speeds won't be telling, but I'd like to know if you feel comfortable at 60-65mph?


Dave aka Ghan

Many of these transmissions aren't synchronized, but I find mine easy enough to shift. I often start out (empty/lightly loaded) in 2nd gear. I don't bother double clutching (I just hold in the clutch a couple seconds until the gear speeds match enough to finish the shift), and I have even been known to shift without bothering with the clutch at all (RPM matching, or "floating" as many truck drivers do). 4th and 5th are fairly close in ratios.


Many medium and heavy trucks have "clutch brakes", which is activated by pushing the clutch all the way to the floor. What it does is to slow down/stop the clutch disk(s) from spinning so you can shift into gear when stopped. You don't want to engage the clutch brake (in other words, floor the clutch) while moving, as it will quickly wear out the clutch brake.



Since 5th is 1:1 and rear gears are 5.38, I top out at 55 (to be changed at some point), but I'd feel comfortable driving this bus 80+ - assuming road and traffic conditions allow.

[Ghaniba]

Originally Posted by o1marc

What makes you think the pre 04 DT466E is any different than the 04+?

It is my understanding that the pre 2004 did not have an EGR.


Dave aka Ghan

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by Ghaniba

It is my understanding that the pre 2004 did not have an EGR.


Dave aka Ghan

I'm sorry, got my numbers mixed up. What makes you think the trannys are huge step up from pre 04. It's my understanding the 3060 is the same in them both.

[Ghaniba]

How would one determine if a bus had this "clutch brake" ?

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

Many medium and heavy trucks have "clutch brakes", which is activated by pushing the clutch all the way to the floor. What it does is to slow down/stop the clutch disk(s) from spinning so you can shift into gear when stopped. You don't want to engage the clutch brake (in other words, floor the clutch) while moving, as it will quickly wear out the clutch brake.

[WARGEAR]

Something I’d like to add is that the difference between the DT466E as opposed to DT466 is the addition of HEUI And computerized engine management. That means electrical stuff just like the emissions engines, but fewer components to fail.

Case in point: We bought our bus (DT466E) with a failing cam sensor. Didn’t show up on the test drive but it sure did on the way home! Stranded us twice before I was able to narrow it down without a manual or schematic. Then cost $170.00 to buy.

In regards to your LR3: I love the boxy designs of the LR3/4 but don’t really love the IFS/IRS for an off-road suv. I prefer the solid axles of the D2. And yes the D2 reputation has been plagued with issues! Fortunately, 220,000 miles and 11 owners later mine is still on the road!

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Ghaniba

How would one determine if a bus had this "clutch brake" ?

If it has a non-synchronized transmission in it. The synchronizers make clutch brakes unnecessary, but become a wear point(s) in the transmission. In a car/light truck, the clutch disks aren't all that big or heavy, so synchronizers can do the job of matching disk/gear speeds. But these big transmissions handle a *LOT* more torque and need much beefier clutches. Many even have 2 clutch disks. That becomes a *LOT* of rotating mass and inertia and synchronizers would wear quickly matching gear/disk speeds. So the transmissions remain unsynchronized, and clutch brakes bring things to a stop so we can engage gear while stationary.


If you look between the clutch and transmission, you should see the clutch brake. It will ride on the transmission input shaft (and spin with it correspondingly), there will be a friction point on the transmission as well as one on the clutch assembly to allow it to brake (sort of like car disk brakes, but in reverse. The friction material is on the clutch brake, the other points are just machined metal).

[Ghaniba]

Thanks for the info on a clutch brake!

As for the electronics, I bought a scanguage D specifically for whatever bus I end up with, to have some sort of minimal diagnostics. It may not solve everything, but I'll at least have some data to look at, I hope!

Dave aka Ghan

[Ghaniba]

Originally Posted by o1marc

I'm sorry, got my numbers mixed up. What makes you think the trannys are huge step up from pre 04. It's my understanding the 3060 is the same in them both.

It was my understanding from reading this forum, as a general rule of thumb -- not specifically the 3060 at all, but that the likelyhood of the AT545 would be reduced:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

buying a bus that is 2004 or newer you wont have to deal with non-overdrive automatics.. by then you will either find an allison 2000 series (most conventionals), allison 1000 series (van cutaways and light duty IC BE style shortie), and the allison 3000 (MD-3060).. in the big engined and many Rear engine busses..

you shouldnt run into any AT545's..

I'd just like to say thank you to all of you guys for the constant wealth of information. While it may seem like folks ask all these questions and just do the opposite to the answers -- We're all just trying to make a good decision for ourselves personally.



I forgot to mention one of my biggest interests in the later 2008 is the 4" higher roof. I'd love to not do a roof raise, but if I buy the '98 -- I'll be signing up to do that, without question, as I need every bit of the height to build this as an enclosed toy hauler.


If it does suffer engine issues and I end up doing a whole rebuild - I've got room in my garage for this to be in for a year doing that project. I have no intention of living out of this full time, or EVER really relying on it. The worst case scenario for me will be the bus will be towed home, and I'll go back to towing with a trailer for the weekend.


I do admit, I'm still leaning toward the '98 -- I love the idea of the manual trans -- I just won't know what condition any of them are going to be in until you're looking at it in person.



Dave aka Ghan

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Ghaniba

I'm looking at one of a couple potential buses to buy - Which of these would you pick to take on highway trips, quite possibly hilly areas.

1998 DT466E w/ Spicer 5spd manual (unknown hp)
2008 DT466E w/ Alison 2000 series auto? (220hp)

Also curious, If this is a spicer 5 speed, what's the 2nd stick?
Attachment 31659

I'm still looking for my perfect bus... I'm well versed in driving a manual trans, just never in a bus...

Dave aka Ghan

Stay away from that 08 for sure.

[TJones]

+1 on the older bus. In addition to the maintenance problems of an EGR I suspect a pre EGR engine would be more efficient since you are getting 100% fresh air into the cylinder. I think the 5 speed would be fun to drive.

Ted

[BlackJohn]

I will say my old girl has a 5speed manual, Spicer. Works great and never any synchro issues at all. Feels like a sports car to me and can't imagine wanting to own anything but a standard transmission. I know automatics are getting better, more sophisticated everyday, but with that comes more maintenance too, which translates to money and time and a certain amount of faith in what happens inside those computer controlled babies.
Absolutely not for me, even for free.


My 3 cents,


John

[WARGEAR]

EGR was a primitive method of emissions reduction. The EGR system’s primary purpose is to cool the combustion gasses created to prevent the creation of more NOX gasses (I think that’s the right gas), and to squeeze more “bang” out of the unburnt fuel leaving the combustion chamber. Higher combustion temps create more NO2, which is bad (as is most stuff that comes out of a tailpipe). Some modern cars (gas) no longer use EGR due in part to more efficient fuel injection methods and improved combustion chamber designs.

[o1marc]

The reasons the 545 is undesirable is the same in every year model 545.

[Booyah45828]

You're right, egr was used to lower NOx gasses. Oxides of nitrogen are created when N2 and O2 are present together under high temperatures. The added exhaust gas essentially becomes a filler in the combustion process, reducing temperatures in the combustion chamber by taking up space.

Oxides of nitrogens form smog, which is why they try to eliminate it.

Current diesels use a combination of egr and urea injection onto a catalyst to meet emissions.

Exhaust gasses need to be cooled before being injected back into the cylinder, which is where your egr cooler comes in. EGR coolers have a lot of reliability issues because of the amount of heat transfer involved.

Gas engines don't require near the amount of egr that a diesel does because the engine operates near stoichiometric, eliminating any spare O2 in the combustion chamber that would create NOx. Diesel engines must run above stoich otherwise they create a lot of soot, which is also unwanted.

Most of your modern gas engines that don't have egr pass emissions because of variable cam timing. They can essentially add the exhaust gas in by changing the valve overlap, eliminating the need for the egr valve.

[plfking]

Originally Posted by Ghaniba

What I'd really love is someone to chime in and say -- "Yeah, I've got that same 5spd combo - it's great!" --- because the price on the 2008 is near to double, so I DO lean toward the ol' gal.


Dave aka Ghan

"Yeah, I've got that same 5 speed combo - it's great!"

Mine's a '97 3800 6 window.....175hp DT466E, Spicer ES43-5D, and 4.78 gearing. Around 62mph max at 2300 rpm and 11Rs all around.

1st gear is LOW......if I'm stopped on a downslope, I'll feather 2nd gear to get started.....anywhere else, I'll use 1st just long enough to get the tires rolling. Shifting obviously isn't as crisp as in any of the sports cars I've owned, but it is similar to the 3-on-the-tree in an old Dodge truck I drove growing up, and better than the medium-duty farm trucks I learned on.

Gear ratios for my Spicer are-

1st.......7.25
2nd......3.98
3rd.......2.23
4th.......1.29
5th.......1.00

Have considered (several times) swapping out the rear for a 4.10, but I'm going to wait and see if that granny gear comes in handy on the Forestry Service roads I'm planning in my future.

[Ghaniba]

Originally Posted by plfking

"Yeah, I've got that same 5 speed combo - it's great!" [emoji2]

Mine's a '97 3800 6 window.....175hp DT466E, Spicer ES43-5D, and 4.78 gearing. Around 62mph max at 2300 rpm and 11Rs all around.

1st gear is LOW......if I'm stopped on a downslope, I'll feather 2nd gear to get started.....anywhere else, I'll use 1st just long enough to get the tires rolling. Shifting obviously isn't as crisp as in any of the sports cars I've owned, but it is similar to the 3-on-the-tree in an old Dodge truck I drove growing up, and better than the medium-duty farm trucks I learned on.

Gear ratios for my Spicer are-

1st.......7.25
2nd......3.98
3rd.......2.23
4th.......1.29
5th.......1.00

Have considered (several times) swapping out the rear for a 4.10, but I'm going to wait and see if that granny gear comes in handy on the Forestry Service roads I'm planning in my future.

Curious, how does one tell the axle ratio on these? Or heck, even the exact transmission model? Does the differential have a tag on two of the bolts like many little trucks do?

Dave aka Ghan

[brokedown]

Originally Posted by Ghaniba

Curious, how does one tell the axle ratio on these? Or heck, even the exact transmission model? Does the differential have a tag on two of the bolts like many little trucks do?

Dave aka Ghan

My Thomas had it listed on the placard above the windshield. my bluebird has a tag.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by Ghaniba

Curious, how does one tell the axle ratio on these? Or heck, even the exact transmission model? Does the differential have a tag on two of the bolts like many little trucks do?

Dave aka Ghan

There may be a tag on the rear end showing what gear is in it. If not, calling a dealer with the VIN# can get you everything about your bus.

[Mekanic]

Go with he older one. Our 07 buses here in ohio Don't have DEF but DO HAVE THE DPF. THese are our 2 MB engine buses.