Glow Plugs Ticking - What's Normal?

[joeblack5]

Brad,, I think he has an IDI ( 1991) yours is E ( 2001) ..
The injectors are not under the valve cover and can be easily accessed and pretty cheap relative to the HEUI injectors in the powerstroke or 444E.


OP, If it runs good when started, has decent power, does not smoke, runs even, then all is probably OK. So no worry.


Both of my 7.3 IDI's did not like to start at temps below 40F. Just plug the block heater in, better for the engine any how or if this Cali version does not have one get yourself a used webasto tsl17 or similar. It will be useful for heating the rest of the vehicle as well.
No need for Doom. Just read up on your engine and try to get familiar. Never completely rely on a dealer or mechanic. It is a 27 yr old vehicle and any NON DIY repair will quickly cost more $$ then you paid for the vehicle.


Good luck J

[firebuild]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

From now on thought fuel your own vehicle so you know diesel is going in.

I always do fill my own tanks. But at the dealership they drained the tanks to diagnose a sending unit problem. Someone on the floor, thinking they were being helpful, grabbed a gas can and filled them back up again, never stopping to think that it might be diesel.

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Are you sure your signal light lever is not making its flasher sound and blink. Just asking because it is rather easy to get rattled and overlook the simple things first .

This problem happens every day. I could overlook the signal turn being on once, maybe, but not on a daily basis, especially when there is no way for me to accidentally leave it on when backing into my driveway. I'd have to turn the signal on manually every time I park for that to be the issue.

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Brad,, I think he has an IDI ( 1991) yours is E ( 2001)

You're correct except that "he" is "she." LOL

Originally Posted by joeblack5

OP, If it runs good when started, has decent power, does not smoke, runs even, then all is probably OK. So no worry.

It does run good, in fact so far I have never had a problem with anything other than the initial start-up. It has been parked for up to 4 hours and I've been able to turn the key and go. Haven't had an opportunity to test it longer than that, and it hasn't gotten below freezing much yet.... so I guess we shall see.

Originally Posted by joeblack5

It is a 27 yr old vehicle and any NON DIY repair will quickly cost more $$ then you paid for the vehicle.

I'm not gonna lie, the odds of me becoming savvy enough to do much DIY are slim, but I obviously have to figure something out or I will be even broker than I am now. Just even knowing the right questions to ask is harder than it seems.

The fact that you get hit with such differing opinions makes it complicated, too: I mean, on this thread we've got one person basically saying "don't idle" and another telling me to idle the entire time I'm off doing my grocery shopping. For someone who just figuring all this out it's hard to find the right path. The only thing I can do is go with what feels right to me. I used to think whoever seemed most confident must be right but I have learned through this whole ordeal that confidence does not equal competence. The folks at the dealership were very confident people.

I haven't had a vehicle newer than 23 years old in the past 20 years. The difference is, this one is diesel, and also, in California I had a mechanic friend who took care of me. Here, it's been pretty much heartache so far.

My last 2 vehicles were 25+ year old Ford Rangers. Barely needed maintenance. One, a friend totaled while he was driving it. The other, I crashed up myself. Otherwise they'd still be running. i call them rubber band cars - if they break, you just replace the rubber band.

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Good luck J

Thanks, I think I'm gonna need it.

[cadillackid]

a couple things stand out..



1. it starts when its hor so sounds like fuel delivery isnt an issue.. however compression may be.. as well as how fast does it sound like its "spinning" over?


when the engine is cold, it is harder to start so requires it to spin good (esp if its older and worn) to buoild enough heat to kick over..



to make sure the glow plugs are working you need to make sure that they are actually pulling current.. you can say the relay is good, clicks on and all. but put a clamp on meter across the leads coming off of the relay toward the heads and make sure they are pulling current.. if no or very low current pull is observed then something isnt right, bad wire, bad plug, etc.



also check voltage from the out lead of the flow plug relay (big terminal with wires going toward the heads).. thats where you place the positive meter lead.. then place the negative meter lead on the engine head. - clean part of metal.. I say use this as thats the "reference ground" that the engine is using for its ground..



a thought that came to mind as I was driving my bus is that the clicking on and off is the relay pulling in and out repeatedly which would limit greatly the amount of heat created by the glow plugs..



low voltage to the relay or a poor ground, loose connection could be a culprit.. if the voltage varies wildly on the output terminal it means that relay is going in and out constantly which it shouldnt do...


so thinkl of this scenerio



1. turn the key. relay kicks
2. voltage at relay drops due ti poor wiring /. bad ground / bad connection
3. voltage drops below where the relay can stay on.. and it shuts off - Click!
3. coltage instantly raises back up because no current drawing it down. relay goes back on - Click!
4. repeat cycle..

not much heat is made.. engine wont start cold



-Christopher

[bluebird90]

I had forgotten about that. The relay may click but power not getting thru. Check for power at the gp terminal side with the relay on. If not the relay is bad.

[Mekanic]

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

The ticking probably is, in fact, a timer or clock. I believe the glow plugs cycle instead of heat the entire time (someone correct me if I'm wrong), accounting for the behavior you describe.

X2 100%

Yes they do cycle and it is the glow plug relay that you hear.

Yes completely normal

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Mekanic

X2 100%

Yes they do cycle and it is the glow plug relay that you hear.

Yes completely normal

Is that an IDI thing? My 444e glow plugs heat continuously and even for a bit after the light goes out, and even for a minute after the engine starts ..
I hadn’t heard of them cycling on and off along the way. I do know they all have a timer that shuts them off should you just turn the key and walk away, they reach a max time and just turn off and stay off
Christopher

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Is that an IDI thing? My 444e glow plugs heat continuously and even for a bit after the light goes out, and even for a minute after the engine starts ..
I hadn’t heard of them cycling on and off along the way. I do know they all have a timer that shuts them off should you just turn the key and walk away, they reach a max time and just turn off and stay off
Christopher

I *Think* (and I'm going on memory for this at the moment) they heat for a predetermined amount of time, based on what temperature some sensor says it is. After that, they cycle until (a) the engine is started or (b) the switch is turned off or (c) the system times out.

[joeblack5]

Sorry about the he/ she assumption....

Brad..yes that is how I understand it. The cycling after the start is helping reduce smoke during a cold start. Once on temperature they have to cycle as not to burn up to quickly.

Later j

[firebuild]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Sorry about the he/ she assumption....

That's OK... It's kind of a compliment that you didn't figure it out right away, so I guess I don't sound as un-mechanical as I feel. Not that women are not mechanical... but most of us were not really encouraged to develop that side of ourselves so it's like learning an entirely new language. Of course it's not impossible to learn but I'm always trying to figure out how to fit 48 hours of To Do List into the 24 hours in a day as it is. Lots of times, sleep doesn't even make the cut!

I'm old enough that when I was in school girls weren't allowed to take shop class, and I had to do Home Ec instead. However bad I may be at automotive work, I promise I'm worse at sewing so that was a wasted class.

[joeblack5]

Yeah I had to read thru your previous threads and some of your blog.


Sorry , you did not seem to have to much luck with your bus. All things considered you did well, others in similar situations have abandoned their rigg at no fault.

Shop class or home EC , both are skills that can save you money and make you more independent.


Good luck,

Johan

[bluebird90]

I think it's great to see women having the courage get into schoolies. The best thing I can say is... READ, READ,READ. Ask questions, and know when you are in over your head and get help. ... I think this applies to us guys too.

[BlackJohn]

Hi firebuild. I had to ask those questions in post 22 because I didn't want to assume anything. I know you are a woman too but that had nothing to do with my questioning, hope you are ok with that.
In reading all these posts above sounds like your glow plugs are likely performing as they should so, only time and cold weather will tell. If they are then you may not have to leave your bus idling as I earlier mentioned to get groceries etc.
Those brake lights flashing has me scratching my head though. Do they go out at any particular time and act normal as when the brake pedal is pushed? Someone has likely made a wiring mistake for this to happen.
can you get a pic of the glow plug controller and connections to it. May help diagnose things easier,


All the best lady, continuing to follow your thread



John

[firebuild]

Originally Posted by bluebird90

I think it's great to see women having the courage get into schoolies. The best thing I can say is... READ, READ,READ. Ask questions, and know when you are in over your head and get help. ... I think this applies to us guys too.

Amen, and thank you for applying it to men too! I know way too many who will never ask for help. I made a vow to myself years ago to never use fear as an excuse not to do something, so I tend to lean into new experiences instead of running from them. If I try something and don’t like it, I’ll bail, but some of my best activities terrified me at first. Like scuba diving, which is my favorite things to do in the world.

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

I had to ask those questions in post 22 because I didn't want to assume anything. I know you are a woman too but that had nothing to do with my questioning, hope you are ok with that.

Of course, I'm just psyched to have found a bunch of people who go out of their way to try to help!

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Yeah I had to read thru your previous threads and some of your blog.

See, this is all a trick to get people to read my blog!

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Sorry , you did not seem to have to much luck with your bus. All things considered you did well, others in similar situations have abandoned their rigg at no fault.

I still feel great about Buster, even with all the issues. Someone was commenting to me the other day about it being a "bad decision" to buy it, but I still think it's a good, solid bus. Maybe I should have gone for something a tad newer, but I was aiming for a 7.3L Ford shorty (I am a Ford girl for sure), so when I found one I could afford I jumped. The size and shape are perfect for what I need; the taller body has enough headroom to add floor insulation and still have tall customers be able to stand up, and it’s short enough to fit in the standard 10x20 flea market space. I can't imagine abandoning it after sinking this much in. Plus, it's so damn CUTE.

I decided on the bus initially back in CA because I didn't know where I was going to end up, and it seemed then like full timing might be in the cards. I don't like most RVs and I wanted something I could get more creative with. But then I found out what my Mom's situation was, that I might be needed here, and that the cost to move all my stuff, whether I rented a truck to drive or hired a mover, was $5000+. It made sense to go ahead with the bus plan and use it to transport me, my dog, and all my crap - er, merchandise. The time to bail would probably have been the transmission issue, but I was in the middle of Iowa, and would have had to figure out another way to move my stuff to Massachusetts. So... I'm all in at this point. It's got to get easier from here, right?

Sorry for all the long posts but I’m a writer so it’s hard to stop me once the words start flowing...

[goinbroke2]

Well being a diesel tech for 32 years and owning sever 6.9 and 7.3's.
There is no simpler diesel out there than an mechanical inj diesel(idi or fuel pincher etc)

Turn the key on the relay puts power to the glow plugs. At this time a wait to start light should be eliminated. After 10-15 seconds(longer if colder) the light will go out as the relay clicks. Roll it over and unless it a new engine, idi' like to spin FAST or they are hard to start or won't start at all. They will crank all day long and not start if they are rolling over like a gas engine. It should not be ruh, ruh, ruh, it should be ruhruhruhruh really fast. So, if it's not spinning fast, yes check both batteries(new or not) check connectors and ground straps. If everything is good, the starter is weak. They either have Ford starters or nipondenso. One absolutely critical thing with either starter is, don't spin them more that 20 seconds. Give it 30 seconds minimum between try's. Why I say the starter is weak is, I've rebuilt a ton of them, they are a gear reduction starter and if they are cranked too long and overheat, the throw all the solder out of them and the worse it is the slower they crank until they internally short out. The nip starter is very temp sensitive and will grind itself up way faster than the original Ford one.

So, you waited until the wait to start light went out, you roll it over (I always gave it half throttle when starting) it fires up and the relay continues to cycle to reduce emissions. That is normal.
Be right back

[goinbroke2]

Glow plugs, dirt simple to check and replace. Pull the wire off and check continuity with a multimeter or even simpler, as mentioned previously, hook a test light to the positive terminal of the battery and touch it on the connector on the glow plug. It should light up, prove its still working.
If you have to replace one, put a socket on it and remove it like a spark plug. Very important, if it starts unscrewing and then binds up, stop! I know several engines that ran with 6-7 glow plugs instead of 8. Why? Because if it's binding coming out it means the tip has overheated and swelled. So now, the glow plug has a big bulb on the end which won't fit through the tiny hole. The result? The tip breaks off and falls into the pre ign cup then you have to pull the head to get it out. Fire it up without removing it and you trash the head and piston.

Injectors, again, dirt simple. Pull lines and then screw them out like spark plugs. They are $27 each last time I replaced some. Make sure you pull the old copper gasket out of the head when you pull the injector out. Replace with a new one.
Do not bend the lines!! Be careful when you pull the plastic fitting for the return lines, they can break pretty easy. Replace the o rings before reinstalling and put new return lines on, just because. If they're not leaking, they will.

Inj pump is not hard but follow the book. Clatter it's too far advanced and to late it will billow smoke.

Do not try to "hop" it up. 94 was the first year of turbo and it has bigger rods and a bunch of other upgrade to handle the boost. Went from 175 hp to 215 I think it was, they will only stay together up to 250hp or so so don't bother.

Love the engine, my last one had 800,000kms on the long block, never apart. Just new pump and injectors.

[goinbroke2]

Just rereading, to clarify, when I said to stop when removing the glow plug, I meant screw it back in and leave it unplugged. Not stop and leave it there(loose)

Gotta keep stopping, making perogi's for supper. Lol.

[goinbroke2]

One other issue they have is the return valve on the front of the inj pump plugs up, this will cause smoking and low power to the point of not letting the engine start. 3/4" to pull the line, 9/16 to pull the valve and then stick a finishing nail in it while you're blowing in it. The crap blows out and it's good to go. What is the black rubbery crap that plugs it? The retaining band on the governor weights, these wear out after 200,000-250,000kms. It it actually comes apart(if you haven't stopped driving it even though it's hunting at idle and while driving) then it will destroy the pump housing. I've seen one engine and heard about another engine running away when it snapped. As in full throttle with no limit! Scary, I grabbed the snuff board and got mine stopped in time but the other puked two rods and caught the combine on fire, slinging oil everywhere.

Mmmm perogi's ...gotta go.

[firebuild]

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

It should not be ruh, ruh, ruh, it should be ruhruhruhruh really fast. So, if it's not spinning fast, yes check both batteries(new or not) check connectors and ground straps.

I learned the ruhruhruhruh thing the hard way, by cranking too much for too long and draining the battery more than once. Before I got new batteries, I could tell you as soon as you turned the key whether it was going to start or not. So at this point, yes, it's cranking fast every time.

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

If everything is good, the starter is weak.

So, you're saying, if I need multiple tries to get it started at low temp, then the starter is automatically weak? It wouldn't surprise me if it were because that is one of the parts that has NOT been replaced and that thing has been cranked to death at various points in this whole ordeal.

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

One absolutely critical thing with either starter is, don't spin them more that 20 seconds. Give it 30 seconds minimum between try's.

Good to know my instincts are not dead wrong, I have been using 20 seconds as my cutoff, and always stop at that point. As for waiting in between, it's probably overkill but I have been waiting a full cycle of the glow plugs between each try, and my "ticking" averages about 45 seconds.

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

So, you waited until the wait to start light went out, you roll it over (I always gave it half throttle when starting) it fires up and the relay continues to cycle to reduce emissions. That is normal.

I just learned about the half throttle thing and that has sped the process up, but it still takes me 2 to 4 tries to start up.

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Glow plugs, dirt simple to check and replace.

You say dirt simple but my head is spinning with all this info LOL! My little ADD mind overloads pretty easy and I have to compartmentalize, tuck stuff away for when I'm ready to understand it, if that makes any sense. Right now, you might as well be speaking French or Chinese, but I appreciate the info being here, because there will be a day when I will get it. Part of it is, not having spent enough time under the hood, it's all abstract right now.

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

If you have to replace one, put a socket on it and remove it like a spark plug. Very important, if it starts unscrewing and then binds up, stop! I know several engines that ran with 6-7 glow plugs instead of 8. Why? Because if it's binding coming out it means the tip has overheated and swelled. So now, the glow plug has a big bulb on the end which won't fit through the tiny hole. The result? The tip breaks off and falls into the pre ign cup then you have to pull the head to get it out. Fire it up without removing it and you trash the head and piston.

OK, this is pretty interesting. So you're saying that if the plug is stuck, just leave it there dead. Run the bus on the other 7. I have had people telling me that if one glow plug is bad then I have to replace them ALL, so this is a pretty new idea. Confusing, because it's the opposite of what I've heard before, but interesting.

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Do not try to "hop" it up. 94 was the first year of turbo and it has bigger rods and a bunch of other upgrade to handle the boost. Went from 175 hp to 215 I think it was, they will only stay together up to 250hp or so so don't bother.

What do you mean by "hop it up"?

Originally Posted by goinbroke2

Mmmm perogi's ...gotta go.

Mmm is right... hope you have enough for everyone.

[lyleapgmc]

Originally Posted by firebuild

OK, this is pretty interesting. So you're saying that if the plug is stuck, just leave it there dead. Run the bus on the other 7. I have had people telling me that if one glow plug is bad then I have to replace them ALL, so this is a pretty new idea. Confusing, because it's the opposite of what I've heard before, but interesting.

"replace them all" is a theory promoted, i believe, by those selling parts. The opposite theory is "If it ain't broke don't fix it."



There is some credence to the "replace them all" idea since if one has failed the others are probably near failing also.



I know of a very respected aircraft mechanic who does not believer in the "replace them all" philosophy. His airplane has two engines of six cylinders each. If one cylinder fails for whatever reason he will only replace that one cylinder. He feels very safe and confident flying with that repair. He will take on anyone that disputes his position on "replace them all."


Lyle

[concrete]

Sorry to hear about your troubles firebuild.
As a few have mentioned, if it runs well and doesn’t smoke probably your engine internals are ok despite the gas.
For about 6 years I have owned a 1992 Ford 7.3 idi and, like you, have had to do a lot of learning!
These engines don’t like to start when it’s cold, and much below freezing they won’t at all if everything isn’t in good shape.
As a number have mentioned the “wait to start” light will be followed by a distinct clicking and bouncing of the amp-meter and your lights (dash lights, headlights, brake lights, ALL the lights) will also dim simultaneously and in time with the clicking. This is normal; the glow plugs draw a lot of power and don’t leave as much for the lights.
Goinbroke2 covered the engines needs very well. x2 his comments on having a good starter and good fuel return lines (these lines can let air into the system which limits/prevents fuel delivery), and the comments of many others on good batteries (they should be over 900 cold cranking amps “cca” each), cables and connections. As to the connections, it would be worth a few hours to systematically go through your battery cable connections (first disconnect from the batteries!)—clean them all with electric parts cleaner and a Scuff pad, then reassemble with dielectric grease. Sometimes a poor ground connection can be the whole problem.

Also, you may already have a block heater! My truck didn’t have one, and when I went to install it—it was already there! All it was missing was the special extension cord ($10-15) available at most auto parts stores. Ford put them in place of one of the freeze plugs on the back of the motor. If your California rig doesn’t have this, then consider getting an inline coolant “tank” heater ($40-60) that circulates hot water through the engine. Very effective.
Finally, Oilburners is another forum that would be good to add to your reading list. Those guys are die-hard fans of these engines and speak from a lot of personal experience.
Best wishes!