Help! Stranded in Canadian Wilderness

[PigPen]

We’re on our now annual trip to Algonquin Provincial Park, and in the last leg of our trip here the bus started acting up.

First problem was that there was a slight hesitation and then surge at highway speeds. Barely noticeable but still there. We kept going and that slight hesitation got progressively worse once we got north of Toronto. At one point we stopped at Tim Hortons for coffee and when I restarted it shut off while idling. After that things got more interesting.

The hesitation turned into a shudder and even stronger surge, it felt like the bus wasn’t getting any fuel for a second or two and then getting it back. On one occasion it shut off completely going North on 11. After that I went to 5 different garages asking for help but couldn’t find anyone that could. So I kept the speed low (45 mph) and didn’t have any more problems until I stopped to refuel right before getting to our campground.

At that point I realized that the batteries had stopped charging at some point, though I don’t know when they cut out. It had to be after the problems started based on the amount of stopping and starting that happened going garage to garage.

So now we’re stuck with a bus in the middle of nowhere, not sure what to do, what the problem is, how to fix it, or who could help if I don’t have the supplies needed for the repair.

I was thinking Ecu or something along those lines given the spread out nature of problems. We contacted a few garages who insisted it was a wiring issue.

I have my multimeter and a decent amount of tools with me.

I welcome any and all suggestions regarding what to check, how to check, good garages in the north bay Ontario area, places to get parts, etc...

If possible, please respond ASAP. We have no service where the bus is at and had to get a ride out of the park to post this. I’ll be able to check responses again in about 3 hours but I don’t know when next.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help!

[HazMatt]

Wow! That stinks!!!
No idea of what idiosyncrasies your type of engine might have. Other than my best wishes you get mobile again ASAP, the only thing that occurs to me is either a slipping belt, or the alternator itself is toast.
Guess you aren't parked next to utilities that'd allow you to charge the batteties...
I'll text CK, he might have some better ideas.
Bon chance!

[peteg59]

Try charging the batteries. Hopefully it'll start again. Then focus on the charging system if you have multimeter with you.
It's either electrical or fuel related, but dead batts are pointing more towards electrical in nature...

[Danjo]

Get batteries charged at a garage and see if it starts.

Do you have a volt meter or multimeter?

Use these steps to test the alternator.

https://www.wikihow.com/Check-an-Alternator

If you don’t have a meter, pull it and take it to an auto parts store that has a testing machine.

Check the battery terminals. Are they clean with a tight connection? If in doubt, clean them. If you have a lot of corrosion buildup, you can use baking soda mixed with water and a toothbrush to clean that stuff off. Use sandpaper or a wire brush to make clean connections.

Check the connector at the alternator. Is the connector in good condition and tight? Look for worn wires.

Check ground wire connections to the battery and frame. If in doubt, clean and tighten.

[somewhereinusa]

What year, engine, chassis?

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by PigPen

We’re on our now annual trip to Algonquin Provincial Park, and in the last leg of our trip here the bus started acting up.

First problem was that there was a slight hesitation and then surge at highway speeds. Barely noticeable but still there. We kept going and that slight hesitation got progressively worse once we got north of Toronto. At one point we stopped at Tim Hortons for coffee and when I restarted it shut off while idling. After that things got more interesting.

The hesitation turned into a shudder and even stronger surge, it felt like the bus wasn’t getting any fuel for a second or two and then getting it back. On one occasion it shut off completely going North on 11. After that I went to 5 different garages asking for help but couldn’t find anyone that could. So I kept the speed low (45 mph) and didn’t have any more problems until I stopped to refuel right before getting to our campground.

At that point I realized that the batteries had stopped charging at some point, though I don’t know when they cut out. It had to be after the problems started based on the amount of stopping and starting that happened going garage to garage.

So now we’re stuck with a bus in the middle of nowhere, not sure what to do, what the problem is, how to fix it, or who could help if I don’t have the supplies needed for the repair.

I was thinking Ecu or something along those lines given the spread out nature of problems. We contacted a few garages who insisted it was a wiring issue.

I have my multimeter and a decent amount of tools with me.

I welcome any and all suggestions regarding what to check, how to check, good garages in the north bay Ontario area, places to get parts, etc...

If possible, please respond ASAP. We have no service where the bus is at and had to get a ride out of the park to post this. I’ll be able to check responses again in about 3 hours but I don’t know when next.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help!

at first reading about the strange surging, the fuel filler cap came to mind - it's happened before when a plugged vent on the filler cap created a vacuum in the fuel tank and the motor started to surge, and at times starved the motor of fuel to the point the motor died - after sitting for a little while, the motor started and ran fine until it starved again - simple temporary fix is to leave the filler cap loose until you can replace it - battery problems are another story - possibly from multiple tries at starting the motor? - tips previously given by other posters are good ones - get the batteries charged up for a start

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by somewhereinusa

What year, engine, chassis?

looks like its a 7.3 in an E-450..


my guess is that the batteries discharging is the heart of things.. thse engines dont like to run with low voltage.. the injector IDMs start dropping voltage which makes the injectors misfire... do you have any method for charging the batteries? solar charger you camn connect that will push some power into them while you are still camping?

[BlackJohn]

If you have CAA Premium or know somebody with it, give them a shout.
They will tow up to 200 miles free I think. So, maybe right home if need be.

I can imagine your predicament up there, no matter what part of the park you are in. But there are busyards near or at either end of the park.
I would get it boosted and do some testing after changing out the fuel filter and after separator draining. Hopefully you have some power at your campsite but I am thinking likely not.
Watching your progress here.



John

[PigPen]

Thanks for all the replies. To answer some questions...

Yes, I can charge the batteries.

And yes it starts fine when they are charged.

I have my multimeter for testing them.

Towards the end of the trip they weren’t getting anything from the alternator.

The connections I’ve checked so far all seem good. Tight and no corrosion.

It’s a 7.3 powerstroke in an e450.

I’ve replaced the alternator once but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be shot.

However, the bus was started probably 10 times after the surging problems first started. There is no way the batteries weren’t being charged in the beginning, I checked them first thing when I noticed the problems and they were still charged.

[PigPen]

So my range if I can’t fix it is probably however long it will go on one full charge. I peg that around North Bay Ontario

[peteg59]

Any parts stores nearby that can do an alternator check? It sounds like that is likely your issue.
Is there a gauge for the charging system or just an idiot light?

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by PigPen

Thanks for all the replies. To answer some questions...

Yes, I can charge the batteries.

And yes it starts fine when they are charged.

I have my multimeter for testing them.

Towards the end of the trip they weren’t getting anything from the alternator.

The connections I’ve checked so far all seem good. Tight and no corrosion.

It’s a 7.3 powerstroke in an e450.

I’ve replaced the alternator once but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be shot.

However, the bus was started probably 10 times after the surging problems first started. There is no way the batteries weren’t being charged in the beginning, I checked them first thing when I noticed the problems and they were still charged.

Well, you could have more than one problem, but as Cadillackid said, it could be that you didn’t have enough juice to drive the injectors.

Did you notice the dash lights flickering?

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

start it up and while running pull the positive cable or cables off of the batteries and if it doesnt stay running then the alternator is shot. if it does then the alternator is charging.
Multiple starts in short trips can cause weak batteries.
Belt slipping under engine load could cause weak batteries.
If those check good then it could just be weak batteries?
After that is checked and or replaced and the running problem still exist then its time to change the fuel filter but you good hot batteries for that.
good luck

[HazMatt]

Better yet:
While idling, take the VOM to the batteries. 14V + indicates the alternator is working, less than 12V, not so much so...
I presume when you checked connections, that included all leads going into the alternator?
If you have some distilled water, I'd ensure all your cells are well hydrated in this heat! [emoji6]

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by PigPen

So my range if I can’t fix it is probably however long it will go on one full charge. I peg that around North Bay Ontario

You might want to hang out where you are till the heat breaks hopefully on Sunday. Got any ac happening in the bus? Hot here in the middle of Lake Ontario today, 100fnF and humid.


On those roads you don't need an engine that is running rough. If you do happen to go to NB, be careful of those roads. The shoulders are narrow and often washed out, easy to tip it over. Traffic will be hellish too.


Heading up there are a few towns that might get you parts and all have school bus depots as a last resort for help.



John

[PigPen]

I’ll get the bus started and check the voltage. I’ll also check to see if belts are slipping.

I forgot to mention that the “Service Engine Soon” light came on at some point during this. I don’t have my scanner on me to see what it has to say however.

[PigPen]

As far as staying there longer, that is only an option if I’m able to snag a “first come first served” site tomorrow or Saturday. There is one right beside the one we’re in but ours is booked by someone else starting Saturday night

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

Belt slipping under engine load could cause weak batteries.

That was the first thing that came to my mind when reading through the original post. Slipping would run down the battery, and when slipping, also show battery voltage across the injectors, which could cause insufficient fueling at high demand. Might be the reason he didn't have (as many) problems at low speeds/loads... less slip + less fuel demand. And why the problems got worse as time progressed (and battery voltage declined).

Pigpen, with the batteries fully charged, what's your voltage across the terminals with the engine idling? When you were experiencing the surging, did your voltmeter dip?

[roach711]

A failing cam position sensor (CPS) on a 7.3L Powerstroke will cause the engine to "hickup" like the ignition key had been shut off then turned back on, but that wouldn't have anything to do with the charging problem. My guess is the alternator or serpentine belt is the problem.

Your fuel pump is electric and low volts could easily cause it to stop pumping.


Edit: can you connect your starting and house banks? That would extend your range considerably.

[Johnny Mullet]

Yes. The 7.3L needs good batteries or it will start missfiring before shutting down. That van has 2 batteries right? One in the engine compartment and one on the passenger side frame? One bad battery can kill the good one.