Won't start; bright red light near parking break + buzz on key turn.

[iProgramStuff]

If one of the wires in the engine was touching the frame, would that drain the battery or possibly create the same symptom that the emergency doors being open creates, thus turning on that alarm?

[iProgramStuff]

Do you think the alarm stop going off because the battery got low? Or some other reason (like the wire moved?)

[Rameses]

Did you check the battery voltage before you put the charger on it?

[frank-id]

I think I can guide you to make your bus run.. Frank

[yeggs]

Step one: don't panic

Step two: isolate.

A loud buzzer sounds to me like a school bus body electrical issue, very likely one of the door or hatch safety alarms to keep the kiddos from falling/jumping out. Yes, it could malfunction if the battery got too low. Yes, it could be a short from a bad splice, or from chafe. Also look and see if there is a battery cut off switch somewhere near or under the driver's seat or the battery box. Typically look like a red hockey puck with on-off-both or some variation written on it. An intermittent short can cause continual voltage drop, killing the batteries over a day or two.

Remember that the engine and chassis are from ford, and the school bus bits are from another manufacturer. So, if it sounds different then the engine alarm noises, then thats a good sign the issues is on the school bus side of things.

Also, it must be cold as... uh... it must be quite cold up there. Diesels hate starting in the cold and I assume you can't use the block heater in the parking lot. Be prepared to jump it. Also, if it was spec-ed for the climate, it may have another pre-heater beside the factory block heater. Look for something that says webasto under the bus body part. It'll have a fuel line and an small exhaust pipe unrelated to the engine stuff. Unlikely on a short bus, but you never know.

Out of fuel seems inconsistent with the symptoms you describe.

For future reference, the 7.3 is super easy to prime. Basically just turn the key to "on" (but not all the way to "start/crank") for like 30 seconds about 3 or 5 or 10 times and the lift pump will prime the fuel filter bowl, which has a air purge check valve up in it. I mean, try not to run out, but the 7.3, unlike a lot of other modern diesels is no biggie to prime. No cracking lines or any of that nonsense.

So:
1. Don't panic
2. Isolate -- signs so far point to body electrical and a dead battery
3. Fix

[yeggs]

Whoops, just watched the videos.

Doesn't seem like the hatch switches.

That light and alarm are not stock from Ford, so someone -- the school bus body manufacturer or the school district must have added it for... something. Agreed, it's unhelpful to have a loud alarm and light with no label. I mean, come on, who does that?

But still. Electrical issue. Could be low battery. Or low temperature? Just trace and slooth. Maybe call the school district or the dealer just to ask what the light means?

Also, definitely cap those wires to the mirrors. Pull the fuse if possible without disabling something else you need.

I'd pull the batteries, charge them with a good charger, load test them, replace as needed, and try again. Again, it's going to be hard to start in the cold without the block heater no matter what.

I can not imagine any way that an e-350 would have an air system. I mean, I guess anything is possible... but why? It would have been a massively costly modification.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by yeggs

Step one: don't panic

Step two: isolate.

Good advice- you are programmer, it is similar logic- one bad syntax, no go. Just a pile of If Not Then statements.

Label wires , relays, etc. until you know them. take pictures- several good ones before diving into wiring- helps jog your brain. use ziplock baggies when disassembling/ mark with sharpie. I write all over stuff- Valve cover: Oil w/ filter- 16 Qts, 15W-40 etc. I write date on every filter I change w sharpie, keep a paper log and write all the filter #'s in there.

Take pics of every data plate- bus, engine, chassis, axle, trans all have them, buried under grease. Google what you got, read-up, download any manuals. FSM, put all good pertinent forum info into text doc. as you will forget this crap. Throw all your docs on a USB, leave on bus for road trip. Copy to your phone- lotsa places without Internet on road.

Mechanic will take your last dime, if they know they have you by the short hairs. If you are knowledgable about your vehicle, you will get better results. Goal is to be self-sufficient, for most part.

Vast majority of busses sold at auction have been neglected toward end of life cycle- why pour money into something school district is selling. Much cheaper and more better to fix stuff at YOUR convenience, not on the side of I-10.

Go slow- I am removing some glow plugs --MotorCraft[Beru] only from a 7.3 IDI right now as other swell. Sprayed penetrating oil yesterday, again today... wait, let it soak. Warm the motor, ease them out TDC. ....Or alternatively just grab a pair of vise grips, snap one off and pull the head to fix

Keep ?'s coming- I am newbie, but some real solid bus info here.

Oh- is bus in neutral? Parking brake on? Doors all closed? seatbelt? These are made to be driven by bored housewives, so many safety features.

[cowlitzcoach]

Please step back away from the bus and take a deep cleansing breath. Working on buses is not rocket science but there are a lot of systems that when something comes adrift it can be a real challenge to discover how to fix what isn't working correctly.

I would concur that the problem is bus body related and not Ford related.

The removal of the mirrors should not cause a drain unless the mirror heat button is turned on.

The 2-way radio may have been wired hot all the time or it might have been wired hot only when the key is in the accessory or run position. That wire could be grounding out and sucking your juice out. I would track it down to the source and make sure it is no longer hot.

Roof hatches are notorious for being a bugger to get seated properly to keep the buzzers from buzzing. I always hated having to check them every day because you never knew if it would seat back properly the first time of if you would have to mess with it a half dozen times. Temperature inside and outside tended to make a difference. The colder it was, both inside and outside, the less pliable the plastic bits were and the harder it was to get it to seat properly.

I also noticed you have a vandal lock on the back door. If that is not all the way in the open position it will not allow the starter to engage. I was driving a new bus to be delivered to a customer and I had to drive it back to the shop. I hit a couple of bumps in the road and it closed just enough to set the buzzer off. And of course once the buzzer was going off when I shut the bus off it wouldn't start again. A little adjustment and we were back on the road. But when I say closed just enough, on a one inch stroke, it may probably only moved less than 1/8" of an inch.

The lift door has the same sort of interlock for starting. So make sure the door is fully closed and latched tight.

Of course, since you have been working on the floor it may have changed the way in which the door seals in the back and at the lift. If the door isn't closed all the way tight it might be enough to allow an interlock to prevent starting.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[cowlitzcoach]

Have you gotten the engine started yet?

It can't be stressed too much that it is very hard on starters to try and start the engine when the batteries are not fully charged.

With an engine that has some sort of glow plug system it is doubly important to have good batteries. When the glow plugs start they can pull in excess of 30 Amps for 15-30 seconds or more. That really can suck the juice out of a battery. It is even worse if your bus has daytime running lights that turn on whenever the key is in the run position.

If you have two starting batteries make sure both are taking a charge. I have seen where one battery has gone bad it keeps the second battery discharged. If that is the case with your batteries, replace both batteries. It is expensive but cheaper in the long run.

Keep us posted as to your progress!

[iProgramStuff]

Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach

Please step back away from the bus and take a deep cleansing breath. Working on buses is not rocket science but there are a lot of systems that when something comes adrift it can be a real challenge to discover how to fix what isn't working correctly.

I would concur that the problem is bus body related and not Ford related.

The removal of the mirrors should not cause a drain unless the mirror heat button is turned on.

The 2-way radio may have been wired hot all the time or it might have been wired hot only when the key is in the accessory or run position. That wire could be grounding out and sucking your juice out. I would track it down to the source and make sure it is no longer hot.

Roof hatches are notorious for being a bugger to get seated properly to keep the buzzers from buzzing. I always hated having to check them every day because you never knew if it would seat back properly the first time of if you would have to mess with it a half dozen times. Temperature inside and outside tended to make a difference. The colder it was, both inside and outside, the less pliable the plastic bits were and the harder it was to get it to seat properly.

I also noticed you have a vandal lock on the back door. If that is not all the way in the open position it will not allow the starter to engage. I was driving a new bus to be delivered to a customer and I had to drive it back to the shop. I hit a couple of bumps in the road and it closed just enough to set the buzzer off. And of course once the buzzer was going off when I shut the bus off it wouldn't start again. A little adjustment and we were back on the road. But when I say closed just enough, on a one inch stroke, it may probably only moved less than 1/8" of an inch.

The lift door has the same sort of interlock for starting. So make sure the door is fully closed and latched tight.

Of course, since you have been working on the floor it may have changed the way in which the door seals in the back and at the lift. If the door isn't closed all the way tight it might be enough to allow an interlock to prevent starting.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Wow this forum is amazing. It's been my top resource for this conversion and fixing this issue by far.

I will definitely keep you updated on my progress...but,

' I also noticed you have a vandal lock on the back door. If that is not all the way in the open position it will not allow the starter to engage. I was driving a new bus to be delivered to a customer and I had to drive it back to the shop. I hit a couple of bumps in the road and it closed just enough to set the buzzer off. And of course once the buzzer was going off when I shut the bus off it wouldn't start again. A little adjustment and we were back on the road. But when I say closed just enough, on a one inch stroke, it may probably only moved less than 1/8" of an inch. '

THIS. THIS IS WHY THE BUZZER WAS ON! From my dad's report (I'm in Toronto for the week, bus is parked in Hamilton and my dad goes to work on it when he can), he said the buzzer went off when he opened this latch! And here we were trying to CLOSE them all. The safety features on this bus are incredible I'll get you the full scoop when I go this weekend.

However, the bus still won't start. It's possible that we left the overhead emergency lights on (or something) or shorted the battery somehow with a wire touching the frame (?)...he didn't give me any details on this yet. It could be a dead battery so I am having it charged up now and then will try to start it. I think I only have 1 starter battery...the other battery is located between the two wheels and I don't THINK it is used for starting, but I could be wrong.

I did try starting the engine a few times with what I thought was a dead battery, so I hope I didn't damage the starter motor. What happens when you try starting with a dead battery?

[cowlitzcoach]

When you try to start with a battery without enough juice in it two things happen.

First, because you don't have enough volts you will require more amps to get the starter turning.

Second, because you don't have enough volts and require more amps to get the starter turning the starter gets hot very quickly. If it gets too hot for too long (and the period that equals too long gets shorter and shorter the lower the juice is in the battery) the starter will fail.

In regards to batteries, on buses that have bodies made by a different OEM from the chassis OEM you are apt to find all sorts of odd combinations of things. Our church owned a van/cut-away bus that had two batteries. For the longest time we didn't even know we had a second battery. The second battery was mounted on a tray under the bus attached to the frame rail. It was not in a battery compartment. There was no indication that there was another battery under there. It was only after we had to replace the under hood battery after a week that we had to find out why the battery was going dead on us--the second battery was toast and taking down the first battery. Let me tell you, trying to jump start the battery on that bus was a royal PITA! I had my 150 AMP charger on the bus for over an hour before I got enough juice to start the bus. And that was using the 300 AMP booster function to help with starting.

Since you have tried starting the bus several times with no success it is going to get harder and harder to start. You have been washing unburnt fuel past the rings. The unburnt fuel will tend to clean off all of the lube oil in the cylinders. This effectively reduces cylinder compression making starting even harder.

At this point, as long as the starter hasn't been toasted, the only way in which you are going to get things started is to make sure all of your batteries are fully charged. When you get ready to start hook up your jumper cables again to a running vehicle just so you can get the absolute maximum juice so the starter will turn as fast as possible. The faster the starter turns the hotter the compression cycle will be.

Good luck!

[Vireo]

I'm not sure when you put fuel in or whether it was pre-treated to prevent the diesel from gelling (it starts to gel at -6C) but that would also prevent the bus from starting.

[El Tanke]

is this not a glow plug issue?

Nevermind..ignore

[iProgramStuff]

The bus runs!!! It was the vandal lock in the back that made the buzz. I can confirm this 100%.

So that prevented start initially, then while trying to fix that I must have killed the battery somehow (lights, buzz, probably not a short cause its great now). Then it would crank because maybe the battery was too dead to buzz. Last week my dad figured out it was the vandal lock and then we charged the battery all week until yesterday. It was now reporting 14 volts instead of less than 8. And then we connected it to another car battery just for extra power. It went up to ~16 volts I think.

And it started right up on the first try.

Guys, thank you so much for all of your help and support! The existence of these forums eases so much of my worry... <3

[CHPete]

Thanks for the pointers.
I have a t444e in a Thomas which must hate being stored. Glow plug buzzer/light keeps on after starting, the red brake light stays one and the brake keeps 'moaning' when depressed. This is becoming a recurring issue ever time the bus is stored for a spell. Cost 500-some bucks to get it 'fixed', and now after more storage, it seems I'll be waving good bye to another hefty sum, unless I can pinpoint what the problems are.

[yeggs]

Are you sure its the glow plug light? Sounds more like a brake issue. Do you have air brakes? Or "regular" hydraulic brakes?


If you have air brakes, there should be two psi gauges on the dash. When stored, it will take 2-10 minutes for it to it to "air up," and the air alarm will go off until the air tanks get to 60psi or so.

[cowlitzcoach]

Originally Posted by CHPete

Thanks for the pointers.
I have a t444e in a Thomas which must hate being stored. Glow plug buzzer/light keeps on after starting, the red brake light stays one and the brake keeps 'moaning' when depressed. This is becoming a recurring issue ever time the bus is stored for a spell. Cost 500-some bucks to get it 'fixed', and now after more storage, it seems I'll be waving good bye to another hefty sum, unless I can pinpoint what the problems are.

It would help in answering your questions if you started your own thread rather than piggybacking on someone else's thread.

Having said that, I am not sure exactly what is going on with your bus.

In cold weather the glow plugs will cycle on and off several times until the engine warms up enough to continue running without "help". The design of the T444/T444E is such that it will not start without help when they are stone cold. The combustion chamber and injectors are set up in such a way that compression alone won't create enough heat to trigger ignition. So when you say the glow plug light stays on after starting it will for a little bit. It may go out and come back on too.

If your brakes are hydraulic brakes it will have boost provided from the power steering pump with an electric override to power the booster if you should lose the power steering pump for some reason. With the key off, when you push on the brake pedal you should hear the electric override working to provide boost. If you can still hear the electric override working (moaning) after the engine is started you have a problem in the power steering boost circuit, most likely a low fluid level. If your electric override is working when the engine is running then a red light and buzzer will go off alerting you to a brake issue.

If your brakes are air brakes, if the system is down to 0 PSI it will take a while to fill all of the tanks. Most buses have four tanks. The first one is the wet tank, the second and third tanks feed the front and rear brakes, and the fourth one supplies air pressure to accessories like air springs, air powered service doors, the driver's seat suspension, air horn, etc. The tanks are filled in series and have check valves to keep the tanks from losing pressure if a leak occurs in a different circuit. For instance, if you have a leaking air can or broken air line on the front brake circuit you can use the service brakes and lose air on the front circuit but retain full pressure on the rear circuit. If you have air brakes the low air pressure light and buzzer will signal low pressure until the second and third tanks have at least 60 PSI. If you have an air suspension it could take several minutes to get the air pressure up to the cut off pressure (110-130 PSI) because there is a lot of volume to fill.

When you say it cost you $500.00 to have something "fixed", what was fixed? Depending upon what was fixed it couldn't have been very much since $500.00 is only about 4 hours of shop time and if any parts were replaced even less time in the shop.

[CHPete]

Sorry about the confusion. I'm still learning how to negotiate the site, so when I found a post with similar issues I just 'hitched' a ride. Perhaps the way to post something is to click on one's own page and hope for the best.

[CHPete]

Thanks yeggs, my bus has the hydraulic brakes. It's been years since I drove for Princess Tours where all the coaches had air-brakes, suspension etc.
An additional dilemma is that the bus is stored in Tucson, 350 miles from my current location, making it difficult to just head over there to follow up on suggestions from this site. Just went there last weekend to check on it, but could only stay for a couple days.
This is my 2nd bus with a t444e. The earlier one - in Alaska - never complained about anything and just ran, making an amateur like me believe that all would perform the same.

What I'm slowly learning on this site, is that these things can have all sorts of tricky issues, like door buzzer circuits preventing rigs from starting, if not properly engaged etc. What I will try to do, as suggested by cowlitzcoach, is to post my problem on a thread when clicking on my own name above. Thanks for responding.