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Old 07-26-2017, 12:38 AM   #1
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2004 IC w/ 2003 T444E - 210 something changed

Ive had this bus since December and I have a routine of starting her every day to bring her up to temp and charge the air (shes got airbrakes AND airride in the rear). This engine had never missed a beat ... until yesterday. I always start it ... let her bring the air up ... then use the cruise control to goose her to 800 so she'll build heat. Did same yesterday then went outside to do something. Before I continue, I should say that almost three weeks ago I added Lucas fuel treatment to the fuel tank AND Lucas oil treatment to the oil - knowing my routine would help work it in. Then a week before setting off do an oil change and fuel filter change. So back to yesterday - all of a sudden the engine raced - dropped back and started making a huge racket .. i raced in and shut her down but it was not sounding good. Clearly I should start with the filters but I have a question about them - whats the diff between the old and new design filters and which one is for me?


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Old 07-26-2017, 07:10 AM   #2
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did you set a code? ie is the WARN engine light on? it sure sounds like either your ICP sensor is off and commanding way too much HPOP pressure, or the IPR cant adjust properly.. the result is an idle that is VERY GROWLY and low sounding..

the computer will shut down the engine speed controller if it detects such a fault so it will go back to normal idle.

I dont klnow the difference between old and new design, but I know that 04 is the last year of the 444E (your chassis is likely 03 as that was technically the last full manufacture year of the engine).. so id Guess new style. I know my oil filter is a 1734 NAPA gold that I use.. fuel-wise I cant remember as a spare one came with my bus.. and if I recall its the same as the ford powerstroke 7.3 filter.
-Christopher
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:55 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
did you set a code? ie is the WARN engine light on? it sure sounds like either your ICP sensor is off and commanding way too much HPOP pressure, or the IPR cant adjust properly.. the result is an idle that is VERY GROWLY and low sounding..

the computer will shut down the engine speed controller if it detects such a fault so it will go back to normal idle.

I dont klnow the difference between old and new design, but I know that 04 is the last year of the 444E (your chassis is likely 03 as that was technically the last full manufacture year of the engine).. so id Guess new style. I know my oil filter is a 1734 NAPA gold that I use.. fuel-wise I cant remember as a spare one came with my bus.. and if I recall its the same as the ford powerstroke 7.3 filter.
-Christopher


Thanks Christopher as always you are wealth of good information. There was no warn indication. Im trying to latch on to a Nexiq USB 2 ... just missed one a couple of days ago for $200. Watch out if I get one of those ... I'll be remapping fuel and ignition curves and other types of mayhem. Lol ... j/k


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Old 07-26-2017, 04:27 PM   #4
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Thanks Christopher as always you are wealth of good information. There was no warn indication. Im trying to latch on to a Nexiq USB 2 ... just missed one a couple of days ago for $200. Watch out if I get one of those ... I'll be remapping fuel and ignition curves and other types of mayhem. Lol ... j/k


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I have another quick one for you Christopher. I have the Allison 2000 (RND4321) and an economy switch ... is that switch like a lockup converter? And does the 2000 have the 6th gear option in the Servicemaxx? Thanks a bunch.


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Old 07-26-2017, 05:15 PM   #5
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heres the thing... you will likely find dissapointment in tuning on these 444E's.. theres no access to the tuning tables at all... and no one made any aftermarket gear for the 444E as it uses a different computer set than the ford did... servicemaxx is good for tuning a few mid level parameters like speed limiters, radiator fan controls, etc..

my ECM is too old to have any trans parameters in it at all... but most all the trans stuff in this old of an implementation is going to be in the allison TCM itself... you can trace down the wiring.. (or maybe I can look it up in my Navistar docs) to see how they implemnented the electronic trans.. I believe they used a WTEC implementation on these.. (older TCM that talked to your ECM)..

your 2004 allison 2000 99% likely doesnt have the 6th gear valve body in it.. you would have to do the valve body upgrade and a TCM program to get 6th gear... after 2005 they all had the valve biody but just were locked in the TCM... the MD-3060s on the other hand always had the capability of being 6 speeds full valve body and all .

allison DOC software will program all TCMs'' however issue with that is to set shift points and such you have to go to allison school and get certified or they wont unlock that part of allison DOC software... and the pro version of the software isnt cheap..

some TCMs can be programmed using the EFIlive tuning software... mainly GM TCMs.. although some medium duty stuff does too... I have an A41 (6 speed TCM) and its tuneable... my later A53 isnt yet cracked by EFILIVE.. though the A50 (GMC) is..

the economy mode button simply is designed to hold down engine RPMs.. it uses a shift table that is much more uopshift-happy.. if you use it you should notice your transmssion tried to get into 5th gear as quick as possible.. and you have to pretty much slam the throttle to get it to downshift.. or lug the engine to 100% power...

Over-fueling a 444E can be accomplished by "faking" the computer... while you cant change the pulse width of the injector call.. you can tell the HPOP to run higher injection oil pressure which will result in a quicker plunge on the injector and more fuel to the cylinders.. its a tad dangerous as you can set codes doing it which tells the ECM to run in default mode..

you are already at 210 HP so you cant bump yourself any higher via computer only .. the 230 has different hardware in it... different turbo and I like to think the injectors are different but i may be wrong.. you are such a late year that you should have AD injectors already.. I dont know if it had a different cam profile or not..

-Christopher
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:54 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
heres the thing... you will likely find dissapointment in tuning on these 444E's.. theres no access to the tuning tables at all... and no one made any aftermarket gear for the 444E as it uses a different computer set than the ford did... servicemaxx is good for tuning a few mid level parameters like speed limiters, radiator fan controls, etc..

my ECM is too old to have any trans parameters in it at all... but most all the trans stuff in this old of an implementation is going to be in the allison TCM itself... you can trace down the wiring.. (or maybe I can look it up in my Navistar docs) to see how they implemnented the electronic trans.. I believe they used a WTEC implementation on these.. (older TCM that talked to your ECM)..

your 2004 allison 2000 99% likely doesnt have the 6th gear valve body in it.. you would have to do the valve body upgrade and a TCM program to get 6th gear... after 2005 they all had the valve biody but just were locked in the TCM... the MD-3060s on the other hand always had the capability of being 6 speeds full valve body and all .

allison DOC software will program all TCMs'' however issue with that is to set shift points and such you have to go to allison school and get certified or they wont unlock that part of allison DOC software... and the pro version of the software isnt cheap..

some TCMs can be programmed using the EFIlive tuning software... mainly GM TCMs.. although some medium duty stuff does too... I have an A41 (6 speed TCM) and its tuneable... my later A53 isnt yet cracked by EFILIVE.. though the A50 (GMC) is..

the economy mode button simply is designed to hold down engine RPMs.. it uses a shift table that is much more uopshift-happy.. if you use it you should notice your transmssion tried to get into 5th gear as quick as possible.. and you have to pretty much slam the throttle to get it to downshift.. or lug the engine to 100% power...

Over-fueling a 444E can be accomplished by "faking" the computer... while you cant change the pulse width of the injector call.. you can tell the HPOP to run higher injection oil pressure which will result in a quicker plunge on the injector and more fuel to the cylinders.. its a tad dangerous as you can set codes doing it which tells the ECM to run in default mode..

you are already at 210 HP so you cant bump yourself any higher via computer only .. the 230 has different hardware in it... different turbo and I like to think the injectors are different but i may be wrong.. you are such a late year that you should have AD injectors already.. I dont know if it had a different cam profile or not..

-Christopher


So I basically have a bus that's the last of it's generation. International bought out Ward ... called it AmTran (technically my bus is an AmTran because my factory build sheets say AmTran across the top, built in Ward's factory in Arkansas), created IC division as their in house coach builder. Now all IC stuff is built in Topeka I guess.

Anyway I was just yanking your chain about the fuel curve stuff. If it was a gas engine I might dabble but not diesel. I'm like you ... my mechanical know how was born of race cars and street racers. Long ago. Far away. Still I cant help browsing bore/stroke ratios, camshaft lobe specs now & then.

Thanks again Christopher


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Old 07-27-2017, 08:11 PM   #7
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well its not necessarily the last of a generation.. the commercial truck segment really never got much Love from the tuning crowd.. only recently with the likes of BullyDog jumping in withy BullyDog big rig.. and of course the cummins.. the issue comes about that the coomputers are always different in the commercial stuff.. and the idea of power-adders generally means less miles... just like im the hotrod world.. the faster you wanted to go the more likely we were to Bust things.. commercially its so expensive to repair / replace a diesel engine .. and most engines were company owned.. esp at the level we are.. a medium duty box truck or a school bus was likely a fleet vehicle and so longevity was the key and not power..

your 30,000 lb school bus with a 444E put out less power than the stock power stroke 7.3 in an F-250 pickup... fundamentally the engines are the same (ford used a different cam and headgasket).. so it *Might* be possible to use a fords computer set and run the 444E with it.. most all of the part numbers for injectors, drivers, sensors, etc cross to be the same..

the 2 biggest obstaclkes would be the allison transmission..

ford never drove an allison so you would have to run it standalone

the thinner headgasket in the navistar means you would still be stuck to a lower RPM unless you swapped it.. or you run the risk of slapping pistons.. ive never crossed the valve springs to see if they are the same or not.

I love modding topics like this!!
-Christopher
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
well its not necessarily the last of a generation.. the commercial truck segment really never got much Love from the tuning crowd.. only recently with the likes of BullyDog jumping in withy BullyDog big rig.. and of course the cummins.. the issue comes about that the coomputers are always different in the commercial stuff.. and the idea of power-adders generally means less miles... just like im the hotrod world.. the faster you wanted to go the more likely we were to Bust things.. commercially its so expensive to repair / replace a diesel engine .. and most engines were company owned.. esp at the level we are.. a medium duty box truck or a school bus was likely a fleet vehicle and so longevity was the key and not power..

your 30,000 lb school bus with a 444E put out less power than the stock power stroke 7.3 in an F-250 pickup... fundamentally the engines are the same (ford used a different cam and headgasket).. so it *Might* be possible to use a fords computer set and run the 444E with it.. most all of the part numbers for injectors, drivers, sensors, etc cross to be the same..

the 2 biggest obstaclkes would be the allison transmission..

ford never drove an allison so you would have to run it standalone

the thinner headgasket in the navistar means you would still be stuck to a lower RPM unless you swapped it.. or you run the risk of slapping pistons.. ive never crossed the valve springs to see if they are the same or not.

I love modding topics like this!!
-Christopher


What about non-invasive stuff ... intercooling perhaps. I love turbos - I think they're better than blowers. The Grand National convinced me. That and I bought this '74 Nova years ago that somebody had put a Martin aftermarket turbo kit in. The kit was designed for the Corvette so there was lots of room for it. That Nova was a world beater - oh I forgot to mention the nitrous kit it had too. Anyway AHEM ... back to buses


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Old 07-27-2017, 09:20 PM   #9
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Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
ultimately the problem is you can introduce any more fuel... with a deisel theres no feedback.. ie no O2 sensor telling you that you just did an ice-water turbo cooler exchanger..

a bigger turbo or better intercooler only does good if you can fuel it more..
with all mechanical diesels theres all kinds of things you can do to turn up the fuel.. and then you can put on monster turbos ...

ashhh the good old days of hotrodding where you started adding power and fuel. so you could then thrash the transmission and rear end...

-Christopher
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