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Old 10-06-2017, 05:29 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Year: 1996
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Engine: t444e
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96 t444e no start

the engine stalled out a few days ago after we had started it and let it warm up. About an hour down the road it sputtered a bit as if it was going to stall, but then it recovered and we drove it probably 180 miles total to Spokane.

Yesterday is started after a bit more cranking then usual, and we moved it the other side of the road, where it stalled and we left it. Today it started, stalled, and now will not start again.

The scan gauge has been showing the code 151 for a little while which is the barometric pressure gauge out of range on the high side. While this seems to be responsible for timing and glow plug timing, the local international shop says this will not cause a no start scenario... They suggested checking 3 non-existant fuses at the battery box (?!?)

I have replaced the ICP on the driver side head, and the camshaft position sensor, but this didnt solve the no start. I will likely throw the new Injector Pressure Regulator I have on hand, but wanted to check in first to see if folks have any other ideas.

Strangely, the computer isnt showing any new codes with this no-start situation. So maybe its the computer!?!

Please advise if you have any ideas. Luckily we're parked in front of our families house, but would prefer to get this show back on the road, asap ; )

Thanks,

- Ben
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:29 PM   #2
Bus Geek
 
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I would start by checking fuel pressure at the fuel filter... maybe even take a look at the fuel filter to see if it is clean. next I would make sure the HPOP reservoire is getting full.

if your ICP is bad you can unplug it and the engine will throw a code but will start and run with a pre-determined setting.. thats how you can test to make sure its not the ICP.

-Christopher
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:00 PM   #3
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Ok, do check fuel pressure with a pressure gauge at the shrader valve? Need to get the pressure gauge, any other trick to it?

How do i check oil at the hpop?

Thanks!
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:03 PM   #4
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Despite the slant of the street both the oil pan and the hpop resevoir seem to have sufficient oil. Ive been checking the dipstick religiously as we are dripping a tiny bit of oil from somewhere.

Were at about 6k on this oil change, was going to wait to go another 400 to do it at my buddies whos got a flat spot for us and any tool i could ever need.

Will need the wifes help to check fuel pressure, might just try to attach a hose to the drain at the filter housing first, make sure weve got flow, no air, etc before buying a pressure gauge?
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:25 PM   #5
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you could pop the lid off of the canister and crank the engine which would show you if you have flow.. it would overflow or if you pulled the filter element out it would fill up.

the fuel pump on the 444E is mechanical...so you have to crank the starter to see fuel..

the fact you set an ICP code makes me wonder if the HPOP itself isnt the culprit.. a scan tool is required to see what its putting out.. if you were in ohio id bring mine and we could diagnose it..

usually on the 3 box like you have if the IDM is bad you'll get codes related to the IDM (injector voltage driver module)..

the fuel injectors are actuated by the High Pressure Oil developed by the HPOP.. if you arent getting 650 - 700 PSI HPOP pressure then the engine cant start.. the ICP sets a code if the ECM calls for a set HPOP pressure but never sees that pressure realized.. the IPR is what regulates the HPOP pressure .. and the ICP is what reads it..

when i have my scan tool connected to mine and crank I always see over 600 HPOP pressure usually closer to 700 or above..

if you have fuel pressure at that schraeder.. 47 PSI on the older ones.. 65-75 on the post-1999 engines then the next place id go is a scan tool.. where you can run the injector Buzz check which ensures the IDM can drive the solenoids.. and also you can monitor the HPOP pressure..
-Christopher
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:06 PM   #6
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Jeez. These electrically controlled diesels are quite the engineered piece of work...

It never triggered any ICP code, i just swapped it out as an easy first ditch effort...

Scan guage isnt the scan tool ur talkin bout is it? Ive got that but am not entirely familiar with all its capabilities...
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:18 PM   #7
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oh I thought you tossed a code related to PID 164 (thats ICP)..

the scangaue can be a help if its a scangauge D and has the 6 pin Deutsch connector.. you can look for PID 164 which is injection control pressure.. you cant trigger any testes with that tool...
Navistar gives away ServiceMaxx J1708 software for free now.. but you need the hardware device.. an RP1210 compliant interface like a NEXIQ USB-Link 2.. (or a fake version of it that costs less)..

ultimately the progression is as follows..

when you crank.. you shoudl get compression (if you hear a nice even cranking sound.. with the whines in the starter being pretty rythmic.. you likely have compression enough to run it)...

the CPS should read RPM... a scan tool connected during cranking should read RPM.. without that the ECM wont even attempt to fire the injectors..

the cam-driven fuel pump will build pressure at the schraeder valve near the fuel filter.. its mechanical so perfectly normal to see the gauge pulse up and down.

the ECM commands the IPR to run the HPOP pressure up to somewhere around 650-700.. you can see this in PID 164 on a scan tool .

the ECM commands the IDM to fire the solenoid in each injector at firing time.. bad IDM voltages mean the injectors wont fire.. the injector Buzz test that the scan software offers allows you to audibly hear the IDM open the solenoids on each injector.. its a good indication if the IDM voltage is high enough to run those little solenoids..

HPOP pressure multiplies the fuel rail pressure by actuating the plunger in the injector when the solenoid is fired.. the pushes fuel into the highly compressed air in the cylinder.. and it fires..

no low pressure fuel at the schraeder or a clogged filter means none or not enough fuel at the injector to burn..

low or no IDM voltage means that the injector solenoid wont fire to try and inject the fuel.

low HPOP pressure means the injector wont have the ability to build the fuel pressure high enough to "break" past the high compression pressure n the cylinder..

-Christopher
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:42 PM   #8
Skoolie
 
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Ben, three words:

CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR.

I had a '96 T444E ("7.3 Power Stroke") that did the exact same thing, and that's what the problem was. I never got a check engine light, though.

Mine started out with the occasional engine hiccup, then the hiccups became a bit longer-lasting... then there was my first on-road stall-out... then it became harder and harder to start the engine... eventually I had to have the RV towed because it wouldn't start at all.

CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR.

And if I'm wrong, at least you have replaced a well-known trouble item in that engine. (You said that you replaced it - well, make sure it was replaced with the proper replacement part. I read, before getting mine done, that there was a "right one" and a "wrong one". I think they were different colors. Replacing yours with the "wrong one" would not fix the problem.)
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:38 AM   #9
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romani is right for sure on that being a problem part.. for some reason I was thinking it had been replaced but perhaps I saw that in someone elses thread..

if the ECM doesnt see RPM it wont fire the injectors.
-Christopher
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
Ben, three words:

CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR.

I had a '96 T444E ("7.3 Power Stroke") that did the exact same thing, and that's what the problem was. I never got a check engine light, though.

Mine started out with the occasional engine hiccup, then the hiccups became a bit longer-lasting... then there was my first on-road stall-out... then it became harder and harder to start the engine... eventually I had to have the RV towed because it wouldn't start at all.

CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR.

And if I'm wrong, at least you have replaced a well-known trouble item in that engine. (You said that you replaced it - well, make sure it was replaced with the proper replacement part. I read, before getting mine done, that there was a "right one" and a "wrong one". I think they were different colors. Replacing yours with the "wrong one" would not fix the problem.)
yup, sure sounds like it, I keep a spare with me
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:04 PM   #11
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Yeah i Replaced it. It was a real bugger to get out, but i got it and put the new one in, but it still wont start...

Christopher- i had thrown a 164 code as posted in another thread but my code list didnt include it? And no one responded to that post so i was a bit in the dark... the other code it had shown earlier was 252, which has to do with the glow plug light circuit?

Im checking the fuel system today, then might need to work with a mobile mechanic as this seems a bit complex for my level of mechanical abilities... but im happy to hear any further ideas or theories from you all.

Will keep u posted!
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:09 PM   #12
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Hmmm, come to think of it, there was a blue one in the engine, replaced it with a grey one... didnt think much of it but this could be the prob?
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:17 PM   #13
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the codes are different on the older 3 box systems.. I know 164 is the PID for the ICP.. I can start mine in warm weather without the glow plugs functioning at all.. ive just spun it by the key and it kicks over.. but I was thnking someone else with a 96 couldmt do that.. so its probably worth making sure you have voltage toward the glowplugs from the big glowplug relay just as a precaution and its a pretty easy test.. esp since you tossed a glow-plug related code.

FYI - just in case you didnt know.. in 94-96 the computers were called the "3 box" system.. there was the main ECM, the IDM (injector driver module).. and the VPM (vehicle personality module)... then in 97 they switched to a single all inclusive unit called the "diamond Logic" system... the diamond system is easy to spot as it has a large single computer on the passenger side valve cover.. and has stickers stating (HIGH VOLTAGE 120 VDC).. as the cmputer itself provides the high voltages needed for the injector drivers..

I know much less about the 3 box system, and I believe most of the manuals for it were printed manuals - ths why it seems harder to find information on these tha the later diamond systems..

the operational concept of the engine did not change from the 3 box to the diamond, just the computers..
-Christopher
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungeekord View Post
Hmmm, come to think of it, there was a blue one in the engine, replaced it with a grey one... didnt think much of it but this could be the prob?
when you connect your scangauge does it talk? ie if you set it to key On.. can you say read battery voltage? (just to make sre the gauge talks). if so, when you crank the engine you should see RPM on the scangauge dash scanner.. (im assuming you have a scangauge D ofr J170.. I know when I crank mine, my scan tool reads RPM.. usually like 100-150 or so.. if you always see 0 RPM then you would know there is no CPS signal.

-Christopher
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Old 10-07-2017, 03:31 PM   #15
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Yes it does come on and today it displayed 2 codes 153 with a 24 count and 59(?!?) with a 0 count.

When i set it to rpms it does read about 140-155 so it seems the camshaft sensor is working.

I placed a tube on the filter drain and cranked it while open, lots of air bubbles! Now, i accidentally dumped half the filter cartridge of fuel on the ground before this by opening the valve, so it wasnt full for the tests, but all 3 times it filled a soda bottle with a lot of bubbles... could this be the source of the problem? Other then all the old cracked tubing between steel lines what else could b the culprit for air leaks?
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:13 PM   #16
Mini-Skoolie
 
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For anyone interested or following this circus...

Pulled the water separator filter, it was filthy and might have been the source of air since there are at least 3 seals that could potentially leak. Blew back to tank to eliminate the fuel pickup or fuel line as source of troubles, and removed and cleaned the screen in between the water separator and the low pressure side of the fuel pump. Reprimed it all by cranking, air bubbles gone but the bus is still not starting. Fuel pump must be working though since it primed the filter and generated enough suction to be noticable with my finger on the line... so its a fuel injection issue it seems

Next I will try the IPR, but need to get a super deep 29 mm socket. the one Ive got wont fit!

I also want to track down a diagnostic scanner, not totally sure what to look for or where to look...but it seems it would be a helpful tool if I want to keep this thing running.

I bought a digital copy of the engine diagnostic manual, so I guess I will start working my way through it trying to eliminate any variables that seem possibly related...
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:01 PM   #17
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Swapped ipr, still wont start... good fuel pressure at filter but no smoke at exhaust while cranking...
beating head on wall...
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:07 PM   #18
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at this point I would want to be doing the injector Buzz test to find out if the computer can even fire the injectors electrically.. or if the IDM voltage is low.
-Christopher
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:04 PM   #19
Mini-Skoolie
 
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I would love to. International dlr wont lend out diagnostic equiptment.

We did the dash diagnostics and it flashed the following codes:
253 - fuel inj circuit occ self test failed
242 - fdcs circuit to idm occ self test failed
543 - idm faults not received

So it seems theres a communication prob bt the ecm and idm? Weve pulled covers and checked wires, not totally sure how to test the communication bt these two electronic components...
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:04 PM   #20
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boy it sure points to issues with the IDM.. im trying to look in my OnCommand books.. to see if i can see what circuit provides power and ground to the IDM.. a failed IDM will obviously not communicate to the ECM.

so it looks like there is an IDM relay that powers up the IDM.

Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 9.53.59 PM.png

it says the relay is on the RH bulkhead.. the wires in a naviatar harness have numbers on them if you pull back the black tubing a bit you can read them.so you can perhaps see the circuit number and find out if you have [ower coming from the IDM relay to your IDM.

Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 9.59.26 PM.png

below are 2 shots of the IDM connector and the circuit ID's for reference. sorry for the crappy quality.. this is part of the navistar service stuff and it appears they scanned old paper books in and did a crappy job of it..

Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 9.58.28 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-10-09 at 9.57.59 PM.png

-Christopher
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