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Old 08-23-2016, 09:03 AM   #21
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Yes, retarder... Thanks.

What about the trans combo's? I see lots of 545's... Is it realistic to find a 466 with a Allison 2000 or 3000.

Also, what motor(s) would be an upgrade from the 466, assuming there is one? Rather on newer buses are they still using the 466 or have they migrated to another platform?

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Old 08-23-2016, 09:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad.nuesmeyer View Post
Yes, retarder... Thanks.

What about the trans combo's? I see lots of 545's... Is it realistic to find a 466 with a Allison 2000 or 3000.

Also, what motor(s) would be an upgrade from the 466, assuming there is one? Rather on newer buses are they still using the 466 or have they migrated to another platform?
Only the lowest HP rated 466's came with the 545's.
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Old 08-23-2016, 09:29 AM   #23
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the DT-466E often came with a 2000 or 3000 transmission.. in newer busses they sometimes were called "maxxforce DT"

I dont think I ever saw a mechanical DT-466 with a 2000 series.. but lots of mechanicals with the MT-643 transmission.

-Christopher
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Old 08-23-2016, 03:29 PM   #24
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I am on unclear on the difference (read value add to me) between Mechanical Motors (DT466) and Computer Aided (DT466e)?

Also, has anybody had any experience with Spice Transmissions? One of the bus' I have found has the DT466e with a Spicer 5 speed manual transmission ES53-5A. Looking around online and it appears that there is plenty of parts and support for the Tran but, how does it compare to the Allison's?

Note, I am fine driving Manual Transmission (as is my wife), daily driver is a turbo diesel, we are familiar with turbo spool.
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Old 08-23-2016, 04:38 PM   #25
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The added electronics will make the engine slightly more fuel efficient/eco friendly, at the cost of reliability. Now I'm not saying the E engines are junk, there's just a lot more to go wrong with them because of all the added sensors and electronics. I'd prefer a mechanical engine versus an electronic but I wouldn't let that be a primary factor on buying a bus.

If you found a good deal on a manual bus, and you're comfortable with a manual, then take it. Automatics are less work and therefore easier for the general public to drive. If the trans and clutch were taken care of you won't have issues with a spicer.

If it was me, I'd prefer an overdrive 5th vs a direct 5th. But either will work fine as long as you can get down the highway in a desirable manner.
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Old 08-23-2016, 04:49 PM   #26
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What Booyah said. The mechanical engines don't have all the computer related i$$ues that the "E" engines are highly prone to suffer from. Personally, I'll take an all mechanical any day.

As a side note...you can buy a newer electronically controlled Cummins 4 banger for about half the price of an older all mechanical. Why?...cause knowledgeable transplanters don't want to deal with trying to drive or hotrod something that Bill Gates configured.
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Old 08-24-2016, 11:51 PM   #27
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Any input on the international 7.3L motor? My 466 turned out to be a dud... needs rebuilt (and that might be the best case). My quick research says that the International could be more expensive to maintain than a DT466 or a Cummins 8+ but, it should be less than the Mercedes or Cat... Is that true?

Also, I was looking at traditional Amtran body styles but, prices seem really high when compared to a flat front... This got me thinking about my use case. I don't want a full length, I am thinking about a 28-30 foot length but, winter driving &/or dirt roads will happen nearly every outing. Regular driving up steep canyon roads... I don't want to get a CDL so, scratch the Air Brakes (UT requires CDL for air brakes - as does Canada).

I think, I want the engine up front to put weight on the front wheels for steering control. If it were a rear engine, and I put water tanks in the rear (even if they were mid-body), that would reduce the weight on steering wheels. Although, rear engine and rear mounted water tanks would offer more traction.... What has experience taught this crew? Am I creating an issue where non exists?

The other factor on the front end, one of the brokers I have been talking with says that south american bus exports love the amtran body style and are causing a price inflation on the body style. However, flat fronts are not seeing the same inflation. Just a data point. I am not opposed to a flat front... I get more living space on the total vehicle length of 30'. The shorter flat fronts like the TC1000 have a completely flat surface through the interior (no wheel wells) but, the wheels are smaller... Not sure what the net impact of that would be...

Thanks in Advance - I know I am throwing a lot out there on this one beyond the 466 vs. 444 - Thanks Again.
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:03 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad.nuesmeyer View Post
Any input on the international 7.3L motor? My 466 turned out to be a dud... needs rebuilt (and that might be the best case). My quick research says that the International could be more expensive to maintain than a DT466 or a Cummins 8+ but, it should be less than the Mercedes or Cat... Is that true?
DT466 *IS* International. They are pretty common engines and easy to find parts for. The 7.3/DT444 is also an International engine, the 7.3 version used in Fords, the DT444 (essentially same thing) used in IH.

Personally I prefer the DT466 and believe they can go a million miles if properly cared for. That said, they do wear out and are said to be fairly straightforward to rebuild "in frame".
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:43 AM   #29
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On a Flat nose out on gravel etc i would choose a front engine bus. Dragging the bus behind you is better than trying to push it.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:19 AM   #30
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On a Flat nose out on gravel etc i would choose a front engine bus. Dragging the bus behind you is better than trying to push it.
I'm not sure what you mean here, since both styles are rear wheel drive?
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:51 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad.nuesmeyer View Post
Any input on the international 7.3L motor? My 466 turned out to be a dud... needs rebuilt (and that might be the best case). My quick research says that the International could be more expensive to maintain than a DT466 or a Cummins 8+ but, it should be less than the Mercedes or Cat... Is that true?

Also, I was looking at traditional Amtran body styles but, prices seem really high when compared to a flat front... This got me thinking about my use case. I don't want a full length, I am thinking about a 28-30 foot length but, winter driving &/or dirt roads will happen nearly every outing. Regular driving up steep canyon roads... I don't want to get a CDL so, scratch the Air Brakes (UT requires CDL for air brakes - as does Canada).

I think, I want the engine up front to put weight on the front wheels for steering control. If it were a rear engine, and I put water tanks in the rear (even if they were mid-body), that would reduce the weight on steering wheels. Although, rear engine and rear mounted water tanks would offer more traction.... What has experience taught this crew? Am I creating an issue where non exists?

The other factor on the front end, one of the brokers I have been talking with says that south american bus exports love the amtran body style and are causing a price inflation on the body style. However, flat fronts are not seeing the same inflation. Just a data point. I am not opposed to a flat front... I get more living space on the total vehicle length of 30'. The shorter flat fronts like the TC1000 have a completely flat surface through the interior (no wheel wells) but, the wheels are smaller... Not sure what the net impact of that would be...

Thanks in Advance - I know I am throwing a lot out there on this one beyond the 466 vs. 444 - Thanks Again.
Rebuild the 466.............cheap to rebuild, easy to rebuild...........
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Old 08-25-2016, 04:35 PM   #32
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I just drove my 1999 Blue Bird 72 pax from Houston to Reno. It has the DT466 and the much maligned AT545. This thing is a HOSS. Love this engine!

I passed a guy in a short bus with the T444/AT545 on a hill and later chatted with him at a fuel stop. We compared notes. SO glad I got the DT! My bus crawls the hills like a 12 ton leech at 40 mph. His does the same hills about 32 mph, tops, and he has to stop to cool off. He lives in fear of hills. I find them a simple annoyance.

As others have stated, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 444. Good motor! But if you have to deal with hills, brute torque is king, and that would be the DT466. It is, after all, a motor built for grunt power in tractors, combines, etc.

Yes, I am now officially and unabashedly a DT466 fan boy.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:42 PM   #33
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what happened to your DT-466? its in fact destroyed from getting hot?
-Christopher
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:42 PM   #34
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29 foot bus for sale
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f14/97...ale-11815.html
$2000
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:40 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6942 View Post
Rebuild the 466.............cheap to rebuild, easy to rebuild...........
easy to rebuuld if you have the tools to get the head lifted off and transported to a machine shop for work... the rest looks pretty straightforward.. except maybe dropping the tranny to be able to replace the rear main seals which should be part of any rebuild.. (again tools) I think the 466 uses a one piece rear main seal?

otherwise an inframe isnt bad to do.. time, being casreful and paying attention to how it came apart, and reading is the most important thing...

-Chris
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:59 AM   #36
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DOH! Not very familiar with those flat nose buses as my post revealed.thanks
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:48 AM   #37
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what happened to your DT-466? its in fact destroyed from getting hot?
-Christopher
This response towards me?

What happened is that on the long hill up, I thought there was no antifreeze in the engine. What actually happened now that Ive had time to go through the bus mechanically is that the throttle linkage and transmission kickdown line were quite worn, so up that hill the transmission never kicked down out of OD. I had nearly an inch of play between the transmission kickdown linkage and throttle to the engine. The engine didn't get destroyed. It did overheat briefly, but after doing a full fluid check, all is well.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:56 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
easy to rebuuld if you have the tools to get the head lifted off and transported to a machine shop for work... the rest looks pretty straightforward.. except maybe dropping the tranny to be able to replace the rear main seals which should be part of any rebuild.. (again tools) I think the 466 uses a one piece rear main seal?

otherwise an inframe isnt bad to do.. time, being casreful and paying attention to how it came apart, and reading is the most important thing...

-Chris
Not many tools needed for the in frame engine rebuild, but obviously you will need a friend to help lift the head off, lol. Mechanical diesel engines are about as easy as it comes to repairing/rebuilding/maintaining. I was quoted $8-10k for a rebuild on my DT466 in frame if I ever needed one done. No way, the rebuild kit is about $1k shipped on ebay. Having the head checked at a machine shop(magnaflux, decked if needed, valves checked, cleaned and replaced if needed: $250-500 tops)..............2 day job for a novice in reality with a service manual and a 30 pack of his favorite brews, and about $1500-$2k in parts.........cheap, easy to do.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:57 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6942 View Post
This response towards me?

What happened is that on the long hill up, I thought there was no antifreeze in the engine. What actually happened now that Ive had time to go through the bus mechanically is that the throttle linkage and transmission kickdown line were quite worn, so up that hill the transmission never kicked down out of OD. I had nearly an inch of play between the transmission kickdown linkage and throttle to the engine. The engine didn't get destroyed. It did overheat briefly, but after doing a full fluid check, all is well.

oops I got the people mixed up... for some reason i thought the OP had overheated their engine... yeah the Transmission cable can definitely casuse Lugging indeed.. im glad your engine is ok.. what it means is your engine is strong and ready to rock since it got hot and no ill effects.. if it was weak you wouldve seen it then.

-Christopher
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:31 AM   #40
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Hey Everyone,

I am on a quest for a bus and have been looking for a good conversion candidate.

I am really stuck on having an MD3060 or an MT643 transmission and a DT466 or 8.3 Cummins.

I have found some 40' Thomas & International busses with the appropriate transmission but the DT466 equipped that I have looked at have all been 300-400k mile rigs. I have found a couple that are under 200k miles, priced right and look good but they have the T444 engine.

What do you all think of the T444 in this application versus the DT466?

Thanks
IMO take the DT466(regardless of HP/TQ version) all day long regardless of mileage over a T444 or a 6BT 5.9l Cummins engine(regardless of their HP/TQ versions). Both the smaller engines are good, but they are technically light to medium duty quarter to half million mile engines with SOLID maintenance..........not million mile engines like the DT466 with SOLID maintenance. The DT466 is a medium to heavy duty motor. As for the Transmission, the MT643 is great, if you can get a DT466 with one, great, but if it has the AT545 don't fret, that transmission is ALOT more rugged than a lot of ppl give it credit for, in reality its basically as strong as the MT643.
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