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Old 07-08-2019, 08:19 PM   #1
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DT466E no start issue

Good evening all,

Recently I replaced the fan clutch on my engine. The job went smoothly until I went to fire up the engine. I cranked it and it started like normal, I walked out of the bus and turned to look at the fan and the engine shutdown. Hasnít started since.

What could have happened? I have no Navistar diagnostic references but heres what Iíve been able to check.

Things Iíve checked:
-all connections in my working area
-camshaft positioning sensor (checked for operation with multimeter and voltage drop)
-IPR Valve connector (noticed itís wet and is missing itís weatherpak seal) could this be my issue?
-battery voltages (2 batteries): 11.78v drops to 9.85v while cranking. I understand this is below a nominally charged battery. I admit I cranked for a lot longer than necessary to build oil pressure in the HPOP.
What I donít understand is why the motor cranks like normally and even started that one time. I had just driven the bus a couple weeks prior for three hours. I recall reading that if the ECM reads voltage below 10-11v while cranking itíll shut off fuel to the injectors. Can anyone verify this?

I want to install a battery disconnect switch as well. I still have power going through circuits without the key on or in the ignition (can still operate turn signals without a key) so I know I have a drain somewhere.

Whatíre your thoughts? The bus ran very well with no issues until this point after sitting a couple weeks.
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:09 AM   #2
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Any ideas?
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Old 07-09-2019, 11:48 AM   #3
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I have the same engine and have read the same thing about ecu voltage. Try charging the batteries. I have a 25 watt solar panel and charge controller plugged into my always on cigarette lighter that keeps the batteries at 13+ volts for this reason.
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Old 07-09-2019, 02:58 PM   #4
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charge the batteries.. is it possible you knocked a wire off the alternator so it ran for a bit and then shut down..


did you do anything else while changing the clutch? like change the oil and not fill up the filters?
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
charge the batteries.. is it possible you knocked a wire off the alternator so it ran for a bit and then shut down..


did you do anything else while changing the clutch? like change the oil and not fill up the filters?


I did not knock a wire off the alternator, that was something I checked as well. No other work done to the vehicle besides the fan clutch. (THIS WAS BACK IN MAY!) I’ve had the batteries tested at Advance and they claimed they’re both bad. Right after they tested them, I threw them in the bus and it fired up. Now it’s July and it won’t start. My question is why would it crank and crank and crank nice and fast but not start? Is it true what I’ve read about the ECU being voltage sensitive? If I had diagnostic schematics, or service manuals I’m sure this would be easier.

For now I’m going to purchase two new batteries of the same size, CCA/CA and amp hours and go from there. The bus has two 1231MF Deka Group 31 batteries in the battery bay, each rated at 1000CCA/1230CA. I found a place that sells them for $120 a piece. If anyone is in the Central NY area and needs batteries you can call Battery World in Syracuse and they’ll have what you need.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:30 PM   #6
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after you disconnect the batteries.. the ECM likes to see an extra fast cranking speed for some reason the first time you start. give your existing batteries a good shot with an overnight battery charger and see what you get?



, the fact it was running and just stalled is more concerning than the no-start.. most likely a continuation.. if you have a fuel primer.. make sure the fuel system is primed.. the little plunger on the primer should be hard to press dowmn and feel like its tryinfg to move liquid and not air...



the ICP usually wont cause a No-start.. however you can unplug the ICP if you suspect it and the engine should start with a default value being applied to the IPR..



does your WARN light stay on when you turn the key to the ON position after trying to start it?


-Christopher
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
after you disconnect the batteries.. the ECM likes to see an extra fast cranking speed for some reason the first time you start. give your existing batteries a good shot with an overnight battery charger and see what you get?



, the fact it was running and just stalled is more concerning than the no-start.. most likely a continuation.. if you have a fuel primer.. make sure the fuel system is primed.. the little plunger on the primer should be hard to press dowmn and feel like its tryinfg to move liquid and not air...



the ICP usually wont cause a No-start.. however you can unplug the ICP if you suspect it and the engine should start with a default value being applied to the IPR..



does your WARN light stay on when you turn the key to the ON position after trying to start it?


-Christopher
I will put the new batteries on an overnight change to make sure theyíre up to snuff. The old ones I most likely wonít bother with. Theyíre standard lead acid and almost 6 years old.

It ran for maybe 3 seconds then shut down. I check the primer and checked the Schrader valve above it for pressure as well as no air. There is pressure. I might change the fuel filter for shitz and gigz. Considering itís a year old already (less than 500 miles though). The fuel plunger feels stiff to press, I am familiar with priming pumps so I do understand what you mean in regards to feel.

The WARN light comes on for its self test then shuts off after a second or two and once I begin cranking. I checked for trouble codes and got 0 Active (111) and a few Inactive. I will post them shortly.

My IPR valve was slightly damp with what appeared/smelled/tasted to be oil, not diesel. The connector is also missing itís weatherpak grommet/seal. Could this be my problem?
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:01 PM   #8
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Pics of the IPR/connector. The wetness is from brake cleaner but it was slippery with oil prior to that
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:30 PM   #9
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does it crank fast enough to give you any RPM reading as you crank? CPS would be my next thought if its got fuel and no codes.. if the IPR connection was real bad id expect an active IPR out of range code..
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:33 PM   #10
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does it crank fast enough to give you any RPM reading as you crank? CPS would be my next thought if its got fuel and no codes.. if the IPR connection was real bad id expect an active IPR out of range code..
Cranked fast enough to register on the tach. It was doing (if I had to guess) almost 350 RPM. I would imagine a bad crank sensor would mean no Tach operation.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:35 PM   #11
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yep thats exactly it.. to see it register means signal.. almost starting to sound like the HPOP drained dry for some reason...
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:36 PM   #12
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I just wish I could find an actual Navistar publication stating the ECM needs to see 10-11 volts while cranking. I’m at 11.78v key out of the ignition. I’m at 9.85 while cranking at normal speed. I’m leaning towards this being my problem. The batteries have the Amps but not the Volts the ECM wants, since it doesn’t see Amps.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:38 PM   #13
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yep thats exactly it.. to see it register means signal.. almost starting to sound like the HPOP drained dry for some reason...
With the amount of cranking done it would surely have refilled by now. I understand crank speed does not equal idle speed when it comes to the volume of oil and pressure but it most certainly should have filled up if it was just running the other day. Iíd also like to point out how the bus sat for about 4-5 months over winter without being started and fired right up when I tried in the spring time. No extended cranking or anything.
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Old 07-10-2019, 06:12 PM   #14
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Welp new batteries helped by did not fix the problem. The motor cranks strong, battery voltage remains in spec. I got a new troublecode: 335-System ICP unable to build pressure while cranking.

In anyone's experience does this instantly sound like a faulty IPR? Iíve tried cranking with and without the IPR Valve connected. Iím unable to test HPOP pressures with my current toolset. I would imagine Iíd get a move specific code if the HPOP was faulty however.

Any ideas???
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:51 PM   #15
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If anyone has any other ideas I could really use the help. Iím supposed to be taking a 3 day trip the last week of July so this couldnít come at a more inconvenient time
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
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If anyone has any other ideas I could really use the help. Iím supposed to be taking a 3 day trip the last week of July so this couldnít come at a more inconvenient time



I'm thinking fuel filter mainly to change but perhaps oil and air filters also.But definitely fuel filter first, it may go. I know you said it isn't old but when they are knew they can swallow lots of tank dirt that gets stirred up as you drive. Happened to me quite a bit till I knew this had to be regular maintenance along with regular fuel treatment additives. Not so bad when driven daily but sitting can gum things up anywhere in the system.



Hope she goes!


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Old 07-11-2019, 08:27 AM   #17
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insufficient ICP pressure can be a couple things..



1. HPOP ran out of oil.. might want to try filling it to see if it starts and runs at all..
2. IPR has closed fully and isnt allowing any HPOP flow.
3. bad HPOP
4. no Lube oil flow to HPOP for it to self fill.


here is a long justanswer thread on this issue..



ultimately you can check your HPOP reservoire level by taking out the engine oil temperature sensor.. if oil runs out its full, if not, then try filling it till oil runs out.. put the sensor back in and see if the bus starts..



https://www.justanswer.com/medium-an...-resevior.html
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:32 AM   #18
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I appreciate the help. I read that thread yesterday and it also provided insight. Today after work Iím going to pull that sensor and then check for engine oil pressure at the test port down low on the driver side. My oil pressure gauge doesnít move while cranking for extended periods only does itís normal sweep. Iím wondering if itís an oil delivery problem caused by a stuck regulator or cracked oil pickup tube or bad low pressure oil pump (!!). Because like I said it ran for a couple seconds then just quit on me and hasnít started since. Iíll report back my findings. Hopefully this can help someone else in the future.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:56 AM   #19
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even at cranking spoeeds you should be able to see some LPOP pressure.. doesnt take much.. even just a couple PSI would be enough to put at least some oil in the HPOP where it would try to fire..



from the way I understand how the system works is that the computer wont be requiring much HPOP volume until it sees ICP pressure reach a threshold.. Id have to look in my navistar books. but I think its around 300 PSI or so..



hopefully it ends up being something simple!
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:32 PM   #20
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did you ever figure it out?
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