Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-29-2019, 10:52 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
T444E Slowly Lost Power, Now No Start. HELP!

I've got a 2001 International 3000 with 7.3l t444e engine. I recently took it for a spin around the block and as I was leaving the house and climbing a hill, the bus starting losing power. Got up to 25mph then very slowly started falling. Pulled off, turned around and limped home. And when I say limped, I pulled into the driveway idling. Warn Engine light came on then engine shut off. Started it back up a few times, it seemed to idle fine but as soon as I put it in gear same thing, warn engine light and shut off. Then starting idling rough and now nothing. Engine turns over fine but won't run.

I replaced the fuel filter and removed and cleaned the strainer. Changed the oil and filter, figured why not while I'm getting dirty. Coolant level is good. From what was in the fuel strainer (maybe 1.5 oz) there were a few drops of water but i never got the "Water in fuel" light. There were also quite a few chunks of debris in the strainer but didn't seem significant given that it probably hasn't been cleaned in a long while. We did a 5k mile trip last summer and she gets regular trips every few weeks. Haven't had any issues until this!

I've got another big trip planned in a few weeks and need help! Here's what i'm thinking of troubleshooting:

1) Water in fuel (about 1/3 tank in there now, filled about 6 months ago). This bus doesn't have a fuel/water separator, seems to all be handled at the main fuel filter above the engine
2) Bad fuel transfer pump
3) Fuel line blockage. Fuel gets to the filter OK, maybe after the filter?

I'm trying to get a mechanic out to look at it, I really don't want to cough up the $$ for a tow if i don't have to! I've looked through the threads and worked on as much as I could from what's already here, hoping someone has dealt with the same issue.
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 03:12 AM   #2
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: topeka kansas
Posts: 592
Year: 1954
Coachwork: wayne
Chassis: old f500- new 2005 f-450
Engine: cummins 12 valve
Rated Cap: 20? five rows of 4?
not familiar with engine management

If you are going to own this kind of rig, can you purchase the needed computer software that would enable you to check stored fault codes in the ECM and or TCM ? Is there a way to be able to watch injector on/off time for each injector and or other engine parameters that you could access? If you had this ability, would you know what you were looking for? Long run will a tow be cheaper/faster?


william
magnakansas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 07:10 AM   #3
Site Team
 
Johnny Mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Ashtabula, Ohio
Posts: 1,260
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International
Engine: T444E 7.3L
Does the bus have a Diagnostic button on the dash? Only way to find want went wrong is to get the trouble codes set when it died.
Johnny Mullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 07:19 AM   #4
Almost There
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 77
How many miles are on the engine? That, to me, sounds the same as my t444e which had failed injectors. Mine had 160,000 miles.
E450Shorty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 07:31 AM   #5
Bus Crazy
 
joeblack5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: pa
Posts: 1,521
Year: 98
Coachwork: 1. Corbeil & 2. Thomas
Chassis: 1 ford e350 2 mercedes
Engine: 7.3 powerstroke & MBE906
Yes. On a power stroke..lift pump... Schrader valve on fuel bowl filter. Connect a 100 psi gauge that you can monitor while driving.
The check engine light is triggered by negative pressure caused by fuel filter restriction. The lift pump pushes thru the filter and the second piston pump puts at 70 psi to the fuel rails.

Good luck
joeblack5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 08:16 AM   #6
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,228
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblack5 View Post
Yes. On a power stroke..lift pump... Schrader valve on fuel bowl filter. Connect a 100 psi gauge that you can monitor while driving.
The check engine light is triggered by negative pressure caused by fuel filter restriction. The lift pump pushes thru the filter and the second piston pump puts at 70 psi to the fuel rails.

Good luck

the 444E varies a bit from the ford 7.3, they kept the old CAM-based mechanical fuel pump as the only means of lift from the tank to the rail.. I dont remember seeing any sensors for fuel pressure and there are no PID;s in the computer for it.. it does pressurize the rail to a pulsating 65-70 PSI as joe mentioned at the test schraeder under the hood.. I think it needs a minimum of 30-35 for the engine to idle.. since its a mechanical pump you'll notice your test gauge pulsate up and down as you crank..





But first follow Johnny Mullet advice, press the diagnostic button and get the codes out of the ECM and see what it thinks the trouble is..

-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 09:16 AM   #7
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
the 444E varies a bit from the ford 7.3, they kept the old CAM-based mechanical fuel pump as the only means of lift from the tank to the rail.. I dont remember seeing any sensors for fuel pressure and there are no PID;s in the computer for it.. it does pressurize the rail to a pulsating 65-70 PSI as joe mentioned at the test schraeder under the hood.. I think it needs a minimum of 30-35 for the engine to idle.. since its a mechanical pump you'll notice your test gauge pulsate up and down as you crank..





But first follow Johnny Mullet advice, press the diagnostic button and get the codes out of the ECM and see what it thinks the trouble is..

-Christopher
Thanks, will do. I ordered the code reader as soon as it happened. Should have it here today to see what codes i'm getting. No diagnostic button on the dash, have to plug in at the engine. It's a pusher with 190k miles. Also grabbing a pressure tester today to see what we've got there.
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 09:16 AM   #8
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
Did just that, will post what i get when it comes in (hopefully today)
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 09:17 AM   #9
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
No button on the dash but will get them read today at the engine in the back.
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 09:20 AM   #10
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblack5 View Post
Yes. On a power stroke..lift pump... Schrader valve on fuel bowl filter. Connect a 100 psi gauge that you can monitor while driving.
The check engine light is triggered by negative pressure caused by fuel filter restriction. The lift pump pushes thru the filter and the second piston pump puts at 70 psi to the fuel rails.

Good luck
Is it possible that the pressure could read OK but there's a restriction past the pump? Or am i thinking about this wrong and the system is in a loop so entire system pressure will be low regardless of where the restriction is?
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 09:23 AM   #11
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblack5 View Post
Yes. On a power stroke..lift pump... Schrader valve on fuel bowl filter. Connect a 100 psi gauge that you can monitor while driving.
The check engine light is triggered by negative pressure caused by fuel filter restriction. The lift pump pushes thru the filter and the second piston pump puts at 70 psi to the fuel rails.

Good luck
The diagnostic manual says in a no-start situation to crank the engine for 20 seconds to read the fuel pressure. Seems like a lot on strain on the batteries...
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 11:06 AM   #12
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,228
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
its a good idea to have a charger handy when diagnosing issues.. they want you to crank it a decent amount of time to make sure the pump builds and holds poressure... since it is mechanical you will be watching peaks and valleys in your pressure reading as the gauge bobs up and down



cranking for 20 seconds also makes sure the HPOP has had time to fill back up if it drained for some reason.. these engines have 2 oil pumps.. one is the regular Lube oil (your dash gauge pressure).. and the High pressure (HPOP) which is engine oil used as hydraulic fluid to actuate the fuel injectors..


the lube opil pump fills up a reservoire which the HPOP sucks from to build its high pressure oil.. if that reservoire goes empty (ie you ran the engine out of oil).. then the engine fails to run.. cranking 15-20 seconds usually ensures there is oil back in the HPOP reservoire so it would start..

-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 10:43 PM   #13
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
its a good idea to have a charger handy when diagnosing issues.. they want you to crank it a decent amount of time to make sure the pump builds and holds poressure... since it is mechanical you will be watching peaks and valleys in your pressure reading as the gauge bobs up and down



cranking for 20 seconds also makes sure the HPOP has had time to fill back up if it drained for some reason.. these engines have 2 oil pumps.. one is the regular Lube oil (your dash gauge pressure).. and the High pressure (HPOP) which is engine oil used as hydraulic fluid to actuate the fuel injectors..


the lube opil pump fills up a reservoire which the HPOP sucks from to build its high pressure oil.. if that reservoire goes empty (ie you ran the engine out of oil).. then the engine fails to run.. cranking 15-20 seconds usually ensures there is oil back in the HPOP reservoire so it would start..

-Christopher
Thanks Christopher. I've had a charger hooked up to the batteries and they're holding steady. I cranked the engine with a gauge on the fuel valve. After about 20 seconds i had a little under 30 psi. The manual says a minimum of 20psi so I assume this means the filter is free of obstructions and the transfer pump is doing its job. Maybe an issue with the injectors now or high pressure oil pump?
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2019, 11:51 PM   #14
Bus Nut
 
CHEESE_WAGON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 401
Year: None
Coachwork: None
Chassis: None
Engine: None
Rated Cap: None
Question - I see mention of the HPOP here, which I presume means High-Pressure Oil Pump. Is this a HEUI-style engine? I only ask because I didn't think these had this this early. It's a 2001, correct?
__________________
"Cheese Wagon" <anomaly.va@gmail.com>

Former owner - 1989 Ford B700 64-pass Blue Bird (Rest In Peace, Cheese Wagon)
CHEESE_WAGON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 05:11 AM   #15
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 19,341
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON View Post
Question - I see mention of the HPOP here, which I presume means High-Pressure Oil Pump. Is this a HEUI-style engine? I only ask because I didn't think these had this this early. It's a 2001, correct?
They had em since 98 or so. Ever since switching from the IDI.
__________________
.
Roll Your Own Build Thread
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 05:24 AM   #16
Bus Nut
 
CHEESE_WAGON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 401
Year: None
Coachwork: None
Chassis: None
Engine: None
Rated Cap: None
Good to know. I thought the IDI engine ran into the early 2000s.
__________________
"Cheese Wagon" <anomaly.va@gmail.com>

Former owner - 1989 Ford B700 64-pass Blue Bird (Rest In Peace, Cheese Wagon)
CHEESE_WAGON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 08:44 AM   #17
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,228
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON View Post
Good to know. I thought the IDI engine ran into the early 2000s.



1994 was the first model year for the T-444E HEUI engine. somewhere in 95-96 the DT-466E came out with HEUI also.. the CAT 3126 also came out in the mid late 90s.. 97/98 I think which it was HEUI.



some of these engines continued their mechanical for mas overlap for a couple years..



ive seen m,echanical DT-466 busses with a 98 model year, and ive seen DT-466E based busses with a 95 model year.



I know ford switched from the IDI to the T-444E (powerstroke 7.3) in 94 and didnt offer the mechanical anymore.. I dont know if international still sold the 7.3 IDI alongside the 444E or not..


I think the last year for HEUI was in 07/08 when the DT-466E switched to the MaxxForce DT and was no longer HEUI..

the VT-365 was the last HEUI V8 .. when the infamous Maxxforce7 was released in 07/08 it was not HEUI (aka the ford 6.4)..






OK BACK ON TRACK
one thing that needs checked with any crank no start on a 444E are codes for the crank position sensor.. if it fails the engine cant sense its RPM nor where the stroke is so it will fail to fire the injectors.. reading the codes should show an error... otherwise the only way is with a scan-tool.. the scan-tool will read RPM while the engine is cranking.. if it stays 0 then the CPS is the first place to go..
-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 08:52 AM   #18
Almost There
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 77
I agree a CPS is possible. But if one of those fail the engine just shuts down, not slowly losing power.
E450Shorty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 09:59 AM   #19
Mini-Skoolie
 
NinjaSchool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
1994 was the first model year for the T-444E HEUI engine. somewhere in 95-96 the DT-466E came out with HEUI also.. the CAT 3126 also came out in the mid late 90s.. 97/98 I think which it was HEUI.



some of these engines continued their mechanical for mas overlap for a couple years..



ive seen m,echanical DT-466 busses with a 98 model year, and ive seen DT-466E based busses with a 95 model year.



I know ford switched from the IDI to the T-444E (powerstroke 7.3) in 94 and didnt offer the mechanical anymore.. I dont know if international still sold the 7.3 IDI alongside the 444E or not..


I think the last year for HEUI was in 07/08 when the DT-466E switched to the MaxxForce DT and was no longer HEUI..

the VT-365 was the last HEUI V8 .. when the infamous Maxxforce7 was released in 07/08 it was not HEUI (aka the ford 6.4)..






OK BACK ON TRACK
one thing that needs checked with any crank no start on a 444E are codes for the crank position sensor.. if it fails the engine cant sense its RPM nor where the stroke is so it will fail to fire the injectors.. reading the codes should show an error... otherwise the only way is with a scan-tool.. the scan-tool will read RPM while the engine is cranking.. if it stays 0 then the CPS is the first place to go..
-Christopher
Tach is moving on start up so now i'm leaning away from the CPS being the issue. It was a gradual dissipation in power to the no-start.

I was looking around the bus this morning and just had an 'oh shoot' moment... The day the problem happened I was welding on the roof of the bus, putting up a roof rack. Welding cables grounded to rack, but could the current have possibly fried the ECM? Didn't disconnect batteries when i was welding...
NinjaSchool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2019, 10:02 AM   #20
Bus Crazy
 
HazMatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: E Central Tejas
Posts: 1,997
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: IH 3800, 8 window
Engine: T444E w/ Spicer 5-speed MT
Rated Cap: I prefer broad-brims hats
Wouldn't think the ECM was in the voltage's path.
Sure hope not, that's prolly a few more amps than it was designed to carrry... 🤞
__________________
Those who say that it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it.
HazMatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×