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Old 08-12-2017, 04:20 AM   #1
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Winter oil suggestions for T444E

What engine oil should be run for the winter months in the T444E? I expect normal temp ranges 60's to 30's with no temps below 15.
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Old 08-12-2017, 06:39 AM   #2
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15w40

Your winters sound about like ours.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:38 AM   #3
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Even up north you'll want to stick with 15w40. Being a multi-grade oil it will be 15 weight when cold (the 'w' indicates winter weight) and 40 weight when at operating temperature.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:46 PM   #4
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when it was zero outside the night before (and only 3) in this video.. this is how my bus 444E started up,, (withoiut being plugged in..)

I have rotella T T4 15W40 in it..



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Old 08-12-2017, 07:49 PM   #5
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that is not really cold, so the aformentioned weight is ok. However, I plug my bus in a few hrs before i go anywhere n the winter. warm is easier on everything
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
when it was zero outside the night before (and only 3) in this video.. this is how my bus 444E started up,, (withoiut being plugged in..)

I have rotella T T4 15W40 in it..



-Christopher


I saw some powerstroke ford guys blogging about using 5w40 and even 0w40 in like Minnesota and Canada etc. I have always run lightweight winter oils and heavy summer oils (usually Mobil 1 full synthetics) in my cars. Anyone who's tried to pour a quart of 15w40 @ 32 degrees vs one @ 80 degrees can imagine trying to lug that oil up into the cold engine through those tiny oil galleries and bearing races. Just sayin..

Another thing that's been nagging me is the service life of oil changes. I was reading the sample reports of the oil testing service Blackstone labs ... their sample International engine was a DT466 changing the oil on an 18k mile interval. Another was using 350 hours (which by my guess would equate to ~ 17,500 miles @ 50 mph avg speed). International's own recommendation is 10k ... so why am I seeing guys recommending 3k to 6k swaps? Help me understand this.


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Old 08-12-2017, 08:46 PM   #7
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I change my filter every 3k and my oil every 6k.. too much?? possibly but ive never heard of anything detrimental happening from over changing the oil..

also i use 15W40, because more than once ive left 0 degree temps in ohio and 24 hours later im in st pete FL where its 84.. with my travels taking me through multiple climates the tires are enough of a PITA to keep the right pressure.. let alone if i had to worry about running too light of oil in FL.. fortunately im not driving from -25 to +85.. if I was i think id have ot run a webasto heater or such to keep my engine warm in the cold climate. it seems most truckers i know of that drive from extreme to extreme have an APU where they never have to start their engine with oil as thick as goo..
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:54 PM   #8
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I change my filter every 3k and my oil every 6k.. too much?? possibly but ive never heard of anything detrimental happening from over changing the oil..

also i use 15W40, because more than once ive left 0 degree temps in ohio and 24 hours later im in st pete FL where its 84.. with my travels taking me through multiple climates the tires are enough of a PITA to keep the right pressure.. let alone if i had to worry about running too light of oil in FL.. fortunately im not driving from -25 to +85.. if I was i think id have ot run a webasto heater or such to keep my engine warm in the cold climate. it seems most truckers i know of that drive from extreme to extreme have an APU where they never have to start their engine with oil as thick as goo..
-Christopher


Have you ever had a bypass filtration system in any of your buses?


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Old 08-12-2017, 09:49 PM   #9
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whats a bypass filtration system?
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:50 PM   #10
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Once an engine is broken in, the oil filter is a lot less crucial. I've had vehicles with incredibly high miles put on them, and I only change oil filters every other oil change.
That's why they usually give capacities for oil changes with or without a filter.
That's the curriculum taught by MMI/UTI. The first few oil changes sure, I'll spring for a new filter. After that its every other oil change. I change my oil pretty regularly since its hot as hell here. I also buy cheap oil at Rural King. It meets the same standards/requirements, but since its just store brand stuff its about $30 for a five gallon bucket. Makes changing oil regularly on a big diesel downright affordable. I've NEVER understood why anyone would pay some of the figures I've seen on here for oil changes. Even if you go name brand and a new filter its still only like $70 to change your own oil.
Just my 2 cents.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:31 PM   #11
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I thought on a diesel the filter was designed to catch the by products of combustion.. esp on older engines where there is more blow-by.. chances of soot getting into the oil... change the filter you gain a couple PSI oil pressure on these 444E's.. so I figure the filter must be catching something...

even usiong the good rotella T an oil change is still much cheaper than the local diesel shop.

I do agree that generally the off brand oils still have to meet certain standards.. I need to hit up the rural kind thats like an hour away and see what its all about

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Old 08-13-2017, 04:08 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
I thought on a diesel the filter was designed to catch the by products of combustion.. esp on older engines where there is more blow-by.. chances of soot getting into the oil... change the filter you gain a couple PSI oil pressure on these 444E's.. so I figure the filter must be catching something...

even usiong the good rotella T an oil change is still much cheaper than the local diesel shop.

I do agree that generally the off brand oils still have to meet certain standards.. I need to hit up the rural kind thats like an hour away and see what its all about

-Christopher


Apparently a bypass filter system is much more efficient at particulate filtration as proven by the lab results from those using them.

Speaking of blowby, I was studying the T444E's camshaft profile and noticed first that it's a hydraulic roller cam, which is great technology - it allows aggressive lobe profiles (fast open and close ramps) w/o the lobe wear of flat tappets. Ordinarily there is some overlap when both valves are open which helps scavenge the exhaust pulse by building velocity of the intake charge. On blown and turbo engines, however, this overlap is cut WAY down because the intake charge doesn't need help at all. International's T444E cam still has over 60 degrees of overlap in the exhaust/intake transition. I may be wrong but my memory of pressurized cam profiles is that 30 degrees is max for making best power. And that's engines spinning up to 8k rpm. At 2600 where the 444 lives valve overlap is twice as problematic... 4 times worse under turbo boost.

My side point here is that valve overlap has to be a big source of exhaust byproducts in the oil system IMHO.

I guess I am happy at the quality of components International specs for these engines - forged steel crank, 4 bolt mains, forged connecting rods, forged aluminum pistons, hydraulic roller cam ... all component specs used in race engines.


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Old 08-13-2017, 10:31 AM   #13
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I always used hydraulic roller cams in my hotrod engines. I didnt realize the 444E had 60 degrees of overlap.. im new to diesels as far as power-making so I havent studied up much on cam profiles and such..

I used roller cams in my hotrods for the things you mentioned.. much more aggressive profiles and higher lift.. the more lift the farther the valve is open.. and of course with a lazy lobe you run the risk of interference.. enter roller cams where you can have very aggressive lobe profiles.. on my gassers I went back and forth on the amount overlap..

the amount of overlap was changeable when going with DOHC engines as you could advance and retard each cam separately..

the thought pattern on overlap is that the intertia of the exhaust gasses that have just left the cylinder and are on their way down the manifold will create a slight negative pressure on the cylinder.so rather than stop the flow or suck crankcase gasses around the ring gap that you open the intake valve and let it suck in a new air charge. with a gas carbed engine the danger is that some of the old exhaust gas is hot enough to cause ignition in the cylinder which you DONT want.. that ignition could spread to the intake and equals an intake back fire..

with fuel injection its less an issue as you can allow plain air to enter before you fire the injector and assum the exhaust valve close and cykinder sufficiently cooled..

with a diesel perhaps you can leave that overlap longer as its just plain air charge.. so as long as you are pretty confident the cylinder pressure is at 0 or slightly negative you can open the intake for new air to come in.. then close the exhaust valve and bring the piston down.. there is quite a bit of time at the end and beginning of a stroke where theres very little piston movenent which is good for natural air flow..

enter in a turbo on a diesel.. if you leave the exhaust valve open and then open the intake you are simply bringing in fresh air to the cylinder ensuring that all of the exhaust gasses are in fact gone. perhaps thats how they come up with the 60 degree overlap..

im just thinking out loud here..
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:29 AM   #14
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Hey Caddilac,

Do you have an aftermarket starter in Redbyrd? Yours spins up better at 3 degrees than mine does at 70.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:31 PM   #15
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as far as i know its stock.. I read somewhere that the navistar starter was a different one than the ford one.. im not sure how true it is.. ive noticed other 444E's seem to spin fast too..

I also note that some of the documentation for the computers in the navistar talks about minimum RPMs to be noted before the ECM will allow fueling..

also make sure your battery connections and cables are good all the way through.. id say 75% of the time when an engine spins over slowly its related to powering the starter vs the starter itself. even an inferior or wrong-sized colenoid can cause issues with not enough voltage at the starter.

its tricky with a HEUI engione as its always going to want to start.. but the real way to test you need 3 people..
1 with a meter at the batteries where the starter lead leaves the battery.. one with a meter at the starter motor itself.. and a 3rd at the key switch..

person 1 and 2 pit their Meters at volts DC and measure voltage while person 3 cranks the engine.. person 1 and 2 note their LOWEST voltage..

then you calculate the voltage drop that you should have vs actual... and also you can see cranking battery voltage as well..

you can also measure the motor resistance, and solenoid resistance.. and then measure battery voltage and get a rough calculation of total amps leaving your battery during cranking.. or measure it with a clamp on that handles DC..

thus eleminating whether you have a load problem with your batteries..
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:06 PM   #16
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The batteries are new last month and it's always started for me, just seems a bit slow doing it. This fall I plan to do a 100,000 mile refresh on many parts (water pump, fuel bowl, fuel lines, starter and fuel pump). We'll see if the new starter makes any difference.

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Old 08-15-2017, 07:02 AM   #17
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The batteries are new last month and it's always started for me, just seems a bit slow doing it. This fall I plan to do a 100,000 mile refresh on many parts (water pump, fuel bowl, fuel lines, starter and fuel pump). We'll see if the new starter makes any difference.

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FYI ~ bypass oil filter theory http://www.amsoil.com/bypass/



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Old 08-15-2017, 07:50 AM   #18
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my only issue with that schematic is that often stock oil pumps are already taxed when it comes to volume. esp if you are running your engine at high load lower RPM (where most diesels like to live)..

for instance in the 444E you have oil running the injectors, the lube of the engine, extra oil required for the air compressor, the turbo, and even many 250+ amp alternators require an oil line. now you want to take a bunch of oil and flow it through a filter and right back to the sump. from what i have seen of spin on filter adapters is that there is no pressure spring to only allow flow above a certain pressure.. so at low RPM your oil pump is going to struggle.. esp on an older engine..
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:08 AM   #19
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my only issue with that schematic is that often stock oil pumps are already taxed when it comes to volume. esp if you are running your engine at high load lower RPM (where most diesels like to live)..

for instance in the 444E you have oil running the injectors, the lube of the engine, extra oil required for the air compressor, the turbo, and even many 250+ amp alternators require an oil line. now you want to take a bunch of oil and flow it through a filter and right back to the sump. from what i have seen of spin on filter adapters is that there is no pressure spring to only allow flow above a certain pressure.. so at low RPM your oil pump is going to struggle.. esp on an older engine..
-Christopher


So you think stock pumps with some time on them can't make up for that 10 percent capacity loss to the bypass circuit, causing poor flow.

I think you have a point at first running of a new installation but the added capacity, much cleaner oil, has to improve the situation far more than worsen it as time goes on or people wouldn't bother with the expense or waste of time.

Also, I use Lucas' oil stabilizer in all my engines and I think better filtration can only make the lubrication environment more able to maximize the stabilizers efficacy.

I may try a universal kit one day when the spare change can is full again lol.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:46 AM   #20
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I know for a fact that stock pumps wear and lose the ability to pump volume at pressure.. esp at lower RPMs.

while your engine doesnt require high oil pressure at low idle RPMs or low load factors to keep that film of oil in the bearings, it does require it loaded.. there is no magic spring valve that changes with RPMs in our engines that lets oil go through at idle.. the drop in pressure is because the pump cannot push any more.. (there is a pressure relief spring if the oil is really cold it relieves High pressure)..

when I replaced my oil pump a few months ago with an aftermarket (stock specs).. it increased ny low RPM oil flow quite a bit. I only did it because it was super easy when I had the front of my bus in pieces already.. my old pump showed a little wear.. but for 8500+ hours and 150k miles it looked good..

im guessing someone running their bus under full engine load at higher RPMs.. ie no overdrive.. or an AT545 trans running at stall speed all the time wont have any oiling issues if some oil is pulled away for a bypass filter..

but what about someone running at full load at lower RPM.s. with my new trans my RPMs went from 2500 on the highway to 1600... will my oil pump still flow enough oil to keep the bearing film if I pulled away some of it for a bypass? no way really to know other than if I did it and wrote back 5 years from now.. "still going strong 60k miles later"... or 5 weeks. "dang i spun a main"

maybe the fact the oil is inherently cleaner negates any negative noticed in oil flow..

I do tend to like AMSoil's arguments and ideas.. ive used their products over the years.. (their coolant is in my bus now)..
-Christopher
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