Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-08-2019, 03:35 AM   #1
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,856
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
Is this CAT running too hot?

Since we have been in the high 90's and even into the 100's, I have noticed that our CAT 3126 runs quite warm. I know the engine is set up to run around 190 degrees to about 215 degrees. The water temperature regulators are dual 190 degree thremostats, per the factory stndard. The wastegate opens at 21.5 PSI plus or minus 05 PSI, thus the boost pressure maximum is about 21 PSI. The vehicle is 17000 pounds. There are two alternators powering a 13.5 kBTU Coleman Roughneck air conditioner through a 3000W inverter. When the air conditioner is turned on it increases the engine load by 2%. while at idle or a touch more than 1% at fast idle (1200 RPM).


I have a BlueFire J1939 adapter from which I pulled the following data (well, my wife pulled the data while I was driving):


Code:
Date: 09-07-2019
Ambient air temperature: 97 degrees

Time  Mileage  Speed  RPM  Coolant  Load  Torque  Boost  Intake  Tranny
17:51     0.0      0  747       97    12      21      0      99      95 Idle in driveway
18:00     0.0      0 1200      147     6      20      1     104     108 Fast idle w/ air on
18:06     0.0      0 1200      167     5      17      1     108     121
18:12     0.5      0  748      189    26      40      3     108     141
18:21     3.3     53 1892      199    15      53      8     109     155
18:27     7.0     63 2215      207    70     100     21     129     191
18:29     8.2     62 2174      223    59      93      8     122     195
18:30     9.0     37 1753      221    31      42      2     111     204
18:35    12.2     35 1274      221    47      68      4     108     215
18:39    14.0     43 1325      219    54      57      4     109     215
18:44    14.6      0  750      214     3       8      0     118     216 In driveway w/o air
18:57    14.6      0  748      192     2       8      0     117     201 Prior to shutdown
Any thoughts?

Native is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 06:31 AM   #2
Bus Geek
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,992
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
How easy was it to install your BlueFire adapter? I'm thinking of getting one for my bus because I have the common problem where my dashboard occasionally freezes for a few minutes at a time, but I don't know if the BlueFire would fix this or if my BlueFire would then freeze up occasionally.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 08:03 AM   #3
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,707
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
the bluefire is as easy as plug it into the diagnostic port on the dash, load the app and go.. you can customize your own dash screens if you wantto use it as a tablet dash like i do in my bus..



as for this data.. yeah its running warm.. id have expected the fan to be blazing at temps of 220.. this is an FS65 you should really hear the fan... if its not running hard then you needto check some things..


1. is it as viscous clutch? if so is your coolant level correct and full? is your rasdiator free of debris?
viscous clutches use the AIR TEMP from the radiator to slowly ramp up and down.

it could also be going bad..


also if the temp spikes really quickly it can be a thermostat issue.. if it is a slow ramp up then I suspect the fan clutch or coolant level or radiaot debris..



-Christopher
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 08:20 AM   #4
Bus Geek
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,992
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
the bluefire is as easy as plug it into the diagnostic port on the dash, load the app and go.. you can customize your own dash screens if you wantto use it as a tablet dash like i do in my bus..
Hmm, it sounds like this would not fix my intermittent freezing problem, then.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 09:23 AM   #5
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,762
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Mine runs 180-190 under light load and 210-220 at full load.
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 09:55 AM   #6
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,707
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
the OP is hitting in the 220s and not even 100% load factor
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2019, 03:31 PM   #7
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,856
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
The data is AFTER replacing the thermostats, the overflow pressure cap, the fan clutch, blowing and washing the radiator and intercooler.


I have paced a piece of paper on the outside of the intercooler and the fan does draw the paper against the intercooler and holds it well ... at all locations aroud the intercooler.. Also, I have never heard the fan ROAR as others have noted.


I have heard the turbine spinning up from time to time.


The coolant level is proper and it does not puke coolant. The coolant is clean. I have also performed a water pump test by disconnecting the shunt line that feeds back into the overflow. This line does move coolant, but I can stop it with my thumb and minor pressure.


Notice in the data that as soon as I get rolling above 55 MPH the temperature starts to climb and stays elevated until a long duration at 45 MPH or slower.
Native is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 03:52 AM   #8
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,856
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
Additional detail ... the heaters have been deleted and all of the hoses removed right into the engine compartment. This has the effect of reducing the amount of coolant in the system and thus the amount of cooling capacity.
Native is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 06:46 AM   #9
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,707
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
the heaters shouldnt affect it.. most busses run the summer months wit hthe heater valves closed all the time
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 07:56 AM   #10
Bus Nut
 
Meathead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 632
Year: 2001
Coachwork: Thomas
Engine: 3126b 210hp
Rated Cap: 48
My transmission was low on fluid causing engine to run hot. 3126b/md3060
Meathead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 09:46 AM   #11
Bus Nut
 
CMORGANSKOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Philadelpiha Pennsylvania
Posts: 397
Year: 2007
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: FE Bus
Engine: DT-466 7.6L Turbo Diesel
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
Since we have been in the high 90's and even into the 100's, I have noticed that our CAT 3126 runs quite warm. I know the engine is set up to run around 190 degrees to about 215 degrees. The water temperature regulators are dual 190 degree thremostats, per the factory stndard. The wastegate opens at 21.5 PSI plus or minus 05 PSI, thus the boost pressure maximum is about 21 PSI. The vehicle is 17000 pounds. There are two alternators powering a 13.5 kBTU Coleman Roughneck air conditioner through a 3000W inverter. When the air conditioner is turned on it increases the engine load by 2%. while at idle or a touch more than 1% at fast idle (1200 RPM).


I have a BlueFire J1939 adapter from which I pulled the following data (well, my wife pulled the data while I was driving):


Code:
Date: 09-07-2019
Ambient air temperature: 97 degrees

Time  Mileage  Speed  RPM  Coolant  Load  Torque  Boost  Intake  Tranny
17:51     0.0      0  747       97    12      21      0      99      95 Idle in driveway
18:00     0.0      0 1200      147     6      20      1     104     108 Fast idle w/ air on
18:06     0.0      0 1200      167     5      17      1     108     121
18:12     0.5      0  748      189    26      40      3     108     141
18:21     3.3     53 1892      199    15      53      8     109     155
18:27     7.0     63 2215      207    70     100     21     129     191
18:29     8.2     62 2174      223    59      93      8     122     195
18:30     9.0     37 1753      221    31      42      2     111     204
18:35    12.2     35 1274      221    47      68      4     108     215
18:39    14.0     43 1325      219    54      57      4     109     215
18:44    14.6      0  750      214     3       8      0     118     216 In driveway w/o air
18:57    14.6      0  748      192     2       8      0     117     201 Prior to shutdown
Any thoughts?
anything over 200 is too hot. Water boils at 212. You're literally cooking the engine oil and seals. 180-190 is ideal temp.
CMORGANSKOOL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 09:53 AM   #12
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,762
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMORGANSKOOL View Post
anything over 200 is too hot. Water boils at 212. You're literally cooking the engine oil and seals. 180-190 is ideal temp.
That's not true in a sealed system. There's a 200 and 207 degree thermostats available for mine.
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 10:25 AM   #13
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 819
Year: 1993
Chassis: IH 3800
Engine: DT360
Rated Cap: 66
Correct. Pressure and antifreeze increases boiling point.


Under heavy load, I'd say 220 is about the safe limit... but with yours not being under load and running 220... I'd say possibly a water pump issue or something more severe (considering the list of things you've already done).


Could be getting combustion gas in the cooling system which will cause temps to run high...


Or water pump could be weak (or impeller spinning on shaft/broken).
Mr4btTahoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 10:53 AM   #14
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,660
Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Any coolant temp below boil over is safe. Once boil over occurs control of the system is lost and you're overheating.

Granted, you don't want to run at 240 all the time, but to say anything over 200 is too hot is incorrect.

Yeah, 221 is pretty warm, but I wouldn't worry about it normally.

What I would worry about is the tranny temp you're running. You have something wrong if you're that hot on transmission temp, My at545 running down the highway hovers around 150. And that's measured at the converter outlet.

Once you fix that, you'll likely have found the cause of your elevated coolant temps.
Booyah45828 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 12:39 PM   #15
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: topeka kansas
Posts: 1,764
Year: 1954
Coachwork: wayne
Chassis: old f500- new 2005 f-450
Engine: cummins 12 valve
Rated Cap: 20? five rows of 4?
my take on cooling

usually things get cooler when the air gets moving through the radiators, yours is not. I suspect the inside of the radiator is getting full of junk. Needs to be removed, "rodded out" an reinstalled. moving through the air at 50 mph should allow enough air to get through the radiator to make a fan not needed. This is my experience with cars and trucks over the last 30 years or so.

I was going to comment on air intake temperature, but, looking at the numbers, The intercooler seems to be working pretty well.

I assume your bus doe not have one of those funky half size radiators with one side a radiator and the other side an intercooler.

200 to me, is an optimal temperature... makes the most power and gets the most out of the fuel burned. 190 is too cool and 230 is too much...

I sure looks like the temperature climbed the most when at or near 100 percent torque. the heat load comes in a touch after you get there and that is expected, there is not going to be an instant change in temperature.

takes a while to get the coolant down after you have taken to load off the engine... again makes think there is an insulating layer of crud built up on the inner walls of the cooling tubes in the radiator.

william
magnakansas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 03:04 PM   #16
Bus Crazy
 
banman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Moved to Zealand!
Posts: 1,517
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner FS-65
Engine: 7.2L Cat 3126 turbo diesel
Rated Cap: 71 passenger 30,000 gvwr
What Booyah said: The transmission cooler line runs through the radiator so excess trans heat will effect coolant temp as well...

But I would also use an IR temp gun (cheap from harbour fright) to verify how hot things are getting. If the coolant temp sensor is off, it's giving "bad" info to both your dash gauge and the ecm...

Do you have an additional tranny cooler to the one running through the radiator?

You can bypass the tranny line through the radiator (temporarily!) to see if it significantly reduces eng coolant temp.

You can do a sniffer test on the radiator to detect CO if you suspect head gasket failure for any reason.
banman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 05:33 PM   #17
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,856
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
The transmission is indeed part of the total heat equation/system. I just checked the transmission fluid. It is at level and is remarkably clean and clear ... like new clear. I have yet to figure out how to run an IR gun while driving at speed. (just kidding) I have shot the radiator with the IR gun while testing for the fan clutch operation, but not recenty and not in conjunction with readings from the ECM. I believe one of the next steps is to take various temperature readings off of the block and various parts and compare with the ECM coolant temperature. After all, sensors do go bad.
Native is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 06:18 PM   #18
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 18,707
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
I bought one of these and uses HVAC tape to tape sensors to metal inlet and outlet of radiators, A/C coils and the like for various testing... you can get sensors with longer wires..


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
cadillackid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 07:30 PM   #19
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
Additional detail ... the heaters have been deleted and all of the hoses removed right into the engine compartment. This has the effect of reducing the amount of coolant in the system and thus the amount of cooling capacity.
I doubt by much though. It will be the same as if you just didn't turn the heaters on.
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2019, 07:34 PM   #20
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMORGANSKOOL View Post
anything over 200 is too hot. Water boils at 212. You're literally cooking the engine oil and seals. 180-190 is ideal temp.
Water does not boil at 212* in a pressurized system. Boiling point goes up by 3* for every PSI. Most caps are in the 14-16PSI, effectively raising the boiling point to 257*. 210 is not too hot.
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.