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Old 08-31-2019, 10:45 AM   #21
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I would not open up the filters at this moment. Then you need to bleed air out of the system. You are adding another variable to the equation in case it does not start.

Start it, let it run for 5 minutes at idle , check your smoke oil pressure ,blow by, smoke, noise, leaks, charging system and then do all the other things like change filters / oil etc.



Air is a fuel system is a royal pain especially if you do not know why your vehicle does not start and do not have a history for it.


Good luck, J

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Old 08-31-2019, 02:29 PM   #22
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Rated Cap: 71 passenger 30,000 gvwr
And there was much rejoicing!

Wahoo!!!

All the prep work on the back end paid off this afternoon!
The ol' cat started up as fast as a gas engine and sounded surprisingly smooth!

It was a royal pita to get the fuel/water separator off and then even harder to separate the plastic bowl but finally got them apart without damage. There was a good bit of crud in the bottom of the bowl -- I'm happy to have that cleaned up. In my hands I could see the fuel drain doesn't leak -- I was turning it the wrong way to close it -- kinda like the water-drain on an air-compressor...
Now I know...

There was a three wire sensor also screwed into the bottom of the plastic bowl -- can someone tell me what it's for?

And a single wire on the fuel/water filter head -- what is it for?

From working on Huey's I have a nice collection of anodized hydraulic plugs -- one of them was the right plug for the secondary (2 micron) filter so I could easily fill the filter with filtered fuel. Once they were on it only took about ten pumps before I felt strong resistance from the priming pump.

And then it started so fast and easy it was almost anti-climatic...

I couldn't run it for very long because the power steering res leaks from a rust crack -- I didn't wanna cavitate the hydraulic pump and cause new damage... That's now off and I'll see if I can braze it or find a good used one...

I'm so much more excited about this project now that I've heard the engine rumble...

Oh, as I hooked up the batteries I realized it must've had three group 31 batteries by the look of the positive cable. The negative cable is a little different but since I've never seen the original setup I really have no idea. There is room for three group 31 batteries. What did most of you have?
(specificly someone with a thomas fs65 71pass.)

Thanks for all the tips everybody! Now that it runs I'll see about things like oil line update kit -- mine has the rubber line and it shows some age cracking...

And now for some well earned beers!
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Old 08-31-2019, 06:27 PM   #23
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fantastic!!!! great to know that rig runs!!! I love the HEUI engines (3126,444e,466E)..



most peop[le riun 2 batteries... you can install a 3rd if you tghink you'll need it.. i have 2 batteries in all my busses.. and iove started them all when its been a few degrees below zero..
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Old 08-31-2019, 07:51 PM   #24
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good to hear

good hear the success.. I am running two engine batteries an will run four six volt golf cart batteries for the inverter. maybe run four 12 volt dunno for sure still learning ......I will have the system where I can cross connect house batteries to starter if I need to..... or vice versa.

again happy to hear up and running...... I think those wires in the bottom of the filter thing are part of a water sensor circuit... I would expect that to be connected to dash warning light about having water in the fuel......


william 54 ford/wayne
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Old 08-31-2019, 09:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnakansas View Post
SNIP...

again happy to hear up and running...... I think those wires in the bottom of the filter thing are part of a water sensor circuit... I would expect that to be connected to dash warning light about having water in the fuel......

william 54 ford/wayne
That was my guess as well, there are two exposed probes -- water doesn't make a great conductor but it may read the ohmic difference in resistance between diesel and water -- I have to remember this "ol pig" is kinda sophisticated what with an electronic throttle and ecu and all...

Any thoughts out there about my thermostatic (mechanical) fan clutch?
I'm surprised it's not an electric fan -- wondering if it's a retro-fit...?
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Old 09-01-2019, 02:18 AM   #26
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Congratulations on getting your CAT to purrrrrrr!

Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
That was my guess as well, there are two exposed probes -- water doesn't make a great conductor but it may read the ohmic difference in resistance between diesel and water -- I have to remember this "ol pig" is kinda sophisticated what with an electronic throttle and ecu and all...
It does have a sensor in the separator. The dash light is the second from the right on the bottom row. Looks like a fuel pump you see at a service station with a wavy line in the middle. That is the "symbol" for water in the fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
Any thoughts out there about my thermostatic (mechanical) fan clutch?
I'm surprised it's not an electric fan -- wondering if it's a retro-fit...?
They come equipped with a viscous clutch. It is a fairly simple device. I replaced mine out a while chasing down an overheating situation. The fan was real easy to move when cold or hot.

The FS-65 comes with two group 31 batteries, but has the cables for a third. Three will fit in the original battery tray fine. I have four in there ... two for the chassis and two for the house for the time being. It is a tight fit to get all four in the compartment.
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Old 09-01-2019, 05:23 AM   #27
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Wonderful news!
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Old 09-01-2019, 06:39 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
There was a three wire sensor also screwed into the bottom of the plastic bowl -- can someone tell me what it's for?

And a single wire on the fuel/water filter head -- what is it for?

From working on Huey's I have a nice collection of anodized hydraulic plugs -- one of them was the right plug for the secondary (2 micron) filter so I could easily fill the filter with filtered fuel. Once they were on it only took about ten pumps before I felt strong resistance from the priming pump.

Oh, as I hooked up the batteries I realized it must've had three group 31 batteries by the look of the positive cable. The negative cable is a little different but since I've never seen the original setup I really have no idea. There is room for three group 31 batteries. What did most of you have?
(specificly someone with a thomas fs65 71pass.)

And now for some well earned beers!
1) That's a water in fuel sensor, as most have pointed out.
2) That's a fuel heater, in case you're in the cold and fuel starts to gel. I think it's operation is automatic through the engine ecm.
3) Good to see you did that, most just pour fuel down the center hole, which is a huge no-no and why most oem's don't want pre-filled filters,
4) You can fit as many batteries as the shelf will allow. Most busses that I've seen only use 2 group 31's or one 8D. I've only ever needed 2 group 31's.
5) Enjoy those beers and cheers to ya
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Old 09-01-2019, 07:55 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
Congratulations on getting your CAT to purrrrrrr!


It does have a sensor in the separator. The dash light is the second from the right on the bottom row. Looks like a fuel pump you see at a service station with a wavy line in the middle. That is the "symbol" for water in the fuel.


They come equipped with a viscous clutch. It is a fairly simple device. I replaced mine out a while chasing down an overheating situation. The fan was real easy to move when cold or hot.

The FS-65 comes with two group 31 batteries, but has the cables for a third. Three will fit in the original battery tray fine. I have four in there ... two for the chassis and two for the house for the time being. It is a tight fit to get all four in the compartment.
Awesome -- really appreciate hearing from someone with the same model bus. The service manuals and youtube's I've seen of the engine show a different setup -- the "viscous" or thermostatic clutch is an elegant bit of older tech. I'll have to print out the Thomas operators manual linked above.
(as you all know) there's a lot of lights & bells and whistles on this thing...

Native, I'm assuming your twin bus has the same allison 2000 as mine. I've got 11R 22.5" tires and 5.13 axle ratio. What is your cruise speed and top speed and average mpg?
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:05 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
1) That's a water in fuel sensor, as most have pointed out.
2) That's a fuel heater, in case you're in the cold and fuel starts to gel. I think it's operation is automatic through the engine ecm.
3) Good to see you did that, most just pour fuel down the center hole, which is a huge no-no and why most oem's don't want pre-filled filters,
4) You can fit as many batteries as the shelf will allow. Most busses that I've seen only use 2 group 31's or one 8D. I've only ever needed 2 group 31's.
5) Enjoy those beers and cheers to ya
Thanks!
re: #2 -- ahh, makes sense and explains why the plug looks a little crispy...

Good to know the rigs come wired for three batteries but only need/have 2 oem.

re: #5 oh yes! I'm mildly disappointed there's no beer imoji's on this forum -- I tried to import one but it didn't take...
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Old 09-01-2019, 10:36 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
Thanks!
re: #2 -- ahh, makes sense and explains why the plug looks a little crispy...

Good to know the rigs come wired for three batteries but only need/have 2 oem.

re: #5 oh yes! I'm mildly disappointed there's no beer imoji's on this forum -- I tried to import one but it didn't take...
What do you mean wired for 3 batteries, there's only one + and one - cable.
I'm running only one 27D right now.
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Old 09-01-2019, 10:53 AM   #32
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What do you mean wired for 3 batteries, there's only one + and one - cable.
I'm running only one 27D right now.
The positive cable has 3 battery terminal ports on it.
The first one I have wrapped with a nitrile glove and a ziptie...

Something like this --
Red Multi-Battery Overmolded Battery Cable Assembly for 3 Battery Setups 04364

My negative cable was only for a double but I had no way of knowing what was "right" (or oem)
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Old 09-02-2019, 02:23 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
Awesome -- really appreciate hearing from someone with the same model bus. The service manuals and youtube's I've seen of the engine show a different setup -- the "viscous" or thermostatic clutch is an elegant bit of older tech. I'll have to print out the Thomas operators manual linked above.
(as you all know) there's a lot of lights & bells and whistles on this thing...

Native, I'm assuming your twin bus has the same allison 2000 as mine. I've got 11R 22.5" tires and 5.13 axle ratio. What is your cruise speed and top speed and average mpg?

Yes, I have the Allison 2000 with 11R 22.5" tires as you do. My rear end is 5.57:1 ... a bit low. My top-end is about 72 or 73 MPH on a level highway full out. I cruise at 65 with 2250 RPM. Mileage ... interesting question. The ECM shows 6 MPG. Recently on a 300 mile round trip we got 10.5 MPG and on a few short trips it was back at 6 MPG. However, I think my turbo is not functioning properly and that will cause a lot of strange things, such as poor mileage.


By the way, take a trip to your local Freightliner dealer (with your VIN) and ask the service manager or better yet the parts manager to set you up as the owner of your vehicle and ask for a TBB portal login as well as the DTNA login. You can get a bunch of good factory information about your vehicle.
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Old 09-02-2019, 06:13 AM   #34
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so im a bit lost..



this has a Viscous fan clutch or the electric one? the viscous is older tech (unless it was the craptastic visco-tronic ford used on the 6.0)..



its real common to see a a bad viscous clutch that runs at only near its minum speed regardless of temperature.. result being bus runs nice N cool everywhere until you get it on the highway in hot weather..



the electric clutches are operated by the ECM typically off the same sesnir it uses for the coolant temp.. the class 8 trucks have a secondary sensor sometimes.. but havent seen that on the MD stuff..



Transmission.. in 2002 it could be any of several.. the AD2000 series was coming into more widespread use (shifter R-N-D-4-2-1)..



the FS65s however many many had the AT545 ... ive seen only a couple with MT643s..



and even fewer with the MD3060 (pushbutton shifter)...


-Christopher
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:32 AM   #35
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Quote:
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so im a bit lost..



this has a Viscous fan clutch or the electric one? the viscous is older tech (unless it was the craptastic visco-tronic ford used on the 6.0)..



its real common to see a a bad viscous clutch that runs at only near its minum speed regardless of temperature.. result being bus runs nice N cool everywhere until you get it on the highway in hot weather..



the electric clutches are operated by the ECM typically off the same sesnir it uses for the coolant temp.. the class 8 trucks have a secondary sensor sometimes.. but havent seen that on the MD stuff..



Transmission.. in 2002 it could be any of several.. the AD2000 series was coming into more widespread use (shifter R-N-D-4-2-1)..

SNIP...

-Christopher
I absolutely have a viscous (aka thermostatic) fan clutch. It's appears tight while cold. The real proof is after it's hot of course.

I was just surprised it wasn't an electric fan of some sort...

My shifter is as you describe --
pic of my tran ID tag -- I ran it on Allison's look up sight but it didn't give me any in depth info I could use -- better stated -- it gave all the sub-group component #'s used to build the xmsn but I don't know how to decode that...
Maybe you know how to look up the sub-groups? I'd just like to know the gear ratios (especially o/d) and does 4th gear also have lock-up TC, and how much hp it can take?
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
Yes, I have the Allison 2000 with 11R 22.5" tires as you do. My rear end is 5.57:1 ... a bit low. My top-end is about 72 or 73 MPH on a level highway full out. I cruise at 65 with 2250 RPM. Mileage ... interesting question. The ECM shows 6 MPG. Recently on a 300 mile round trip we got 10.5 MPG and on a few short trips it was back at 6 MPG. However, I think my turbo is not functioning properly and that will cause a lot of strange things, such as poor mileage.


By the way, take a trip to your local Freightliner dealer (with your VIN) and ask the service manager or better yet the parts manager to set you up as the owner of your vehicle and ask for a TBB portal login as well as the DTNA login. You can get a bunch of good factory information about your vehicle.
Wow, that's great news for me -- with the lower gear on mine then I should be able to cruise 75 and possibly get 10mpg. That makes a shared cost road trip feasible! Does yours also have the 100 gal tank parallel to the frame behind the rear axle? Even at 8mpg that's incredible range -- dig it!

I tried to get the DTNA login when I bought my batteries and filters but I was taking advantage of my local Freightliner being a 24/7 operation! It was 10:30pm and the night-shift guy didn't know what that was...

I'll try again during the day!
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:57 AM   #37
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There are different versions. The most common is a 2500 PTS. It’s overdrice will be a 0.74, generally 250 HP is a good number for these though I think myallison rates them a little lower.. the lockup operation is controlled by the computer , most of them I’ve seen are programmed to lockup partway through 3rd and run lockup most all the time in 4th and 5th.
Christopher
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:02 AM   #38
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Full electric fans are not really heard of on all but some of the newest RE busses.. transits started first now some of the brand new school busses are trying electric motor fans.. takes a ton of energy to cool the engine so they need huge alternators esp if the bus is AC

Much more common on front nose busses are electric magnetic clutches to engage the belt drive fan. I retro fitted that on my red bus.

In RE busses full put hydraulic motor fans are common. A solenoid engages high or low speed (there is no off). The fan uses the power steering system most often.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:08 AM   #39
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Quote:
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The positive cable has 3 battery terminal ports on it.
The first one I have wrapped with a nitrile glove and a ziptie...

Something like this --
Red Multi-Battery Overmolded Battery Cable Assembly for 3 Battery Setups 04364

My negative cable was only for a double but I had no way of knowing what was "right" (or oem)
Those are after market battery connectors, has nothing to do with how the bus was set up. I have those same connectors, but can't use them on my GC-2s.
Your bus has one positive cable that connects to that connector, same with the negative.
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:52 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o1marc View Post
Those are after market battery connectors, has nothing to do with how the bus was set up. I have those same connectors, but can't use them on my GC-2s.
Your bus has one positive cable that connects to that connector, same with the negative.
You were there when my bus was built -- what else can you tell me?
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