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Old 07-15-2015, 05:55 PM   #1
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Engine: Cummins 24V ISB 210
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24V Cummins ISB 210 Upgrades/Opinions

So my recently purchased freightliner dog nose has a 210 ISB (VP powered). Im very happy with the engine and was the entire reason I bought the bus. I was gonna swap it into a Dodge pick up to replace a low compression 53 block. Well guess what? Bus engine is a 53 block as well but with 78k on the bus and the great overall condition of the bus. Im going to run it and turn it into a dune trip/party bus with a flat bed and dirt bike hauling capabilities.

My 01 Dodge cummins (24V VP) is heavily modified and currently put out 600HP to rear wheels (dyno proven). Currently sports a big single turbo, big injectors, heavy tuning, built trans, blah blah.. Used 99% for towing 25-30k lbs with the occasional sled pulls/drag racing and just hot rodding.

My question:
My bus is rated at 30k. Ive been at that and over many times with my Dodge. So has anyone put any big power to an ISB with any positive results? And. Has anyone been able to tune a 24V without an OBII port? I know small "boost fooler" tuning is available but Id like to run a Edge for monitoring.

My plan/Build would be:
Small towing compounded turbos s300 over s400
RV injectors or similar
ARP head studs
New Exhaust Manifold (weird industrial wont work for compounds)
Water/Methanol Injection
Small Tuning (if available)

Sorry for the long post but just trying to gather notes and input from anyone before I take it head on. Just shooting for mileage and usable SAFE power.

Ive considered an 8.3 Swap but realized I have no interest in the bigger displacement. My 100% goal is to stick with the ISB and see what can be accomplished in a industrial platform. Good or Bad results.

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Old 07-15-2015, 06:50 PM   #2
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There are several good Cummins performance forums around where the latest tricks are discussed. Mine is all mechanical with an inline pump so I can't comment directly, but adding a larger or second turbo along with upgrading the injectors seems to be a pretty common route for more grunt from what little I have read. No clue what has to take place on the computer side of those things.

Good luck with it and let us know what you discover.
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:49 AM   #3
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I'd talk to the tuners specifically. I'm not sure how they work or what they modify because I don't get involved in that(matter of fact, I stay far away from it). You'll have to see if they are strictly J1962 or if they can work on J1939 protocol. I'd assume they can work on both but you'll likely have to get a custom connector for your edge controller to mate to the 9 pin deutsch connector.

None of it would be impossible, but I think you'll be in uncharted territory. As for a safe power level, it's anyone's guess what that is. I know stock works reliably, but how far off stock you can go, especially in a bus is anyones guess. That's why I don't deal with tuners.
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:26 AM   #4
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:26 AM   #5
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Old 07-16-2015, 03:02 PM   #6
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Yeah, I put in a call to edge. But they are extremely hit or miss on tech support since they become a larger company. I could almost see the guys blank stare when I brought up "J" protocols and asked about an adapter cable to adapt to OBDII. At this point I need to get gauges in there to monitor all of my vitals, BEFORE I do anything.

Looks like its gonna have to be standard autometer gauges for boost and pyro. I have a factory trans temp gauge but I will be adding another temp gauge and also an aux transmission cooler.

I think I may have also found a lead on a good used FASS 150 gph lift pump to eliminate low supply and hopefully prolong my VP as long as I can as its a fairly new pump thats on there.

Ill take plenty of pics on the fuel system install and also wiring in gauges for those interested.

And to answer crazycal .. I respond to either. Havent met too many other "dude bros" is the world.. HAHA
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:25 PM   #7
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My understanding.. and I reserve the right to be entirely incorrect... is that the Cummins ECM used in the Dodge application is not the same as the one used in the everything-else application. The Dodge version has one connector; the all-else I believe has two. I believe the OBDII port doesn't direct-connect to the Cummins ECM at all; one has to work through the Dodge PCM as a proxy to get there. (I haven't actually sat down with the factory service manual to verify in the wiring diagram, though.) For example, to use Cummins INSITE software with my '98 Dodge, the "Word on the Internet" was that the only way was to connect to the 3-pin Cummins CAN bus connector under the hood near the power steering pump. Even though the interface I was using had OBDII connectors they apparently couldn't be used.

The word I'd heard is that the Edge, BD, etc devices designed for Dodge-Cummins would work only in a Dodge truck, and not in vocational, RV, or stationary applications. I can imagine the silence that followed when you asked about J1507/1708/1939...

Poking around online a bit I'm getting the idea that there are programmers available for the non-Dodge Cummins applications, but they're different (and more expensive).
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Old 07-17-2015, 02:09 PM   #8
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Thats been my experience as well.. I could never get INSITE to read my dodge truck. again as you said. even with the correct OBDII adapter it just wouldnt communicate. I have a EDGE comp box from a 98.5-99 truck. as long as the MAP sensors are interchangeable the only other thing I will need to do is wire tap my vp for the timing modification. So after gauges. Ill prob start playing around.

My next question. What injectors are in my 210 rated bus. I have a set of stock 235 injectors that were factory in my 01 Dodge and also a set of RV275s. Its perplexing to me that the 275s are not installed factory given the application. So is the 210 a lower output due to smaller injectors or is it in the tuning? I I ran the ecm numbers and it is a ReCon Cummins Industrial ecm. still pretty inconclusive on overall compatibility for tuning.

But the 210 rating has me curious as to how it achieves that rating.

I guess I could call cummins with the ESN or pull the factory bosch p/n but that takes a little fun out of it, and if Im going to pull the injectors for that. I kinda want to put in a different set and see how it does
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Old 07-17-2015, 03:23 PM   #9
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I will be following this to see where it go's.

I'm a bit interested.

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Old 07-20-2015, 10:54 AM   #10
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Dude, only tip I got for the fass is mount it as close to the tank as possible and below it if you can (not always easy). Then eliminate the lift pump on the side of the block. On a side note, I've had issues with fass motors not working but everybody else raves about them so....

I know in 1999, the cummins ecm communicated on the same ccd bus that the pcm, bcm, radio, cluster, etc. all communicated on. So you do have a port to the ecm through the obd connector. Now, I'm going to assume that the ecm would use the same j1962 protocol that the other modules use to communicate on that bus. That's how all of you're tuners connect to the ecm. To use the j1939/cummins insite, you'll have to use the cummins bus connector. Or figure out a way for insite to communicate on 1962 channel.

You'll have to talk to a brain/engineer at edge, not some tech support clown.

Family wagon, The ecm cummins used(number of ports 1,2,or even 3) depends on the number of pinout options the application required. The dodge truck ecm has just about all the pinouts on the ecm used. Your dodge trucks run a ccd data bus to the gauge cluster, while your busses run individual gagues. Those extra wires right there would have necessitated the upgrade to the 2 connector ecm on the busses and were not even counting all the other accessories that are on busses.

Dude, the power levels are primarily dictated by the pcm calibaration. Now each different power level may require different parts(pistons, injectors, injection pumps, manifolds, etc) to reach the rated rating. You can load the 275 horse tune into your 210 engine, and you will achieve a gain in hp. But how much more you'll gain I'm unsure of(I don't think it will be all 65hp). They also change those parts to increase durability too, so I would change the hard parts and the tune.

That comp box doesn't change anything in the ecm, It just fools the sensor inputs into the ecm, leading the ecm to believe it's operating in a different environment then what it actually is. I'm not a fan of them, but they do work.
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:55 PM   #11
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You guys remind me of why I stuck with an old "one wire" motor! You are WAY beyond my technical level.
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Old 07-20-2015, 03:12 PM   #12
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Thanks for the useful information!

The fass will be mounted as close to the tank as possible, and depending on where factory Freightliner pick up is. Also a pressure gauge at VP inlet to monitor supply and prob go with the 1/2" line upgrade as well.

I think at this point Im gonna retire the idea of being able to run anytime of live data monitoring. Its gonna be a waste of energy to make all of those systems compatible and I want to retain factory diagnostic capabilities if need be.

So everything will be stand alone gauges and figuring out a cool way to get fancy with said gauges.

The only reason for any electronic tuning at all is so I can run some timing (for mileage and power). Ive always been VERY disappointed with factory timing curve and the lack of overall timing advance. I think the comp box will be enough for that on the lower levels. I guess I could run a HO dodge VP but they are junk/unreliable and to pick up 10hp worth of timing (rated 235 HO vs 225 SO). Its just not worth it.

I wish I had a way to measure timing with the industrial ECM vs comparable factory dodge and again vs the max advance that a wire tapped pump can achieve. Any Ideas?

I will also never in my life run anything other than a factory SO VP44. I have some pretty terrible experience running any type of modified "performance" VP. But that is an alternative to running a tuner to gain some timing advance. (if were gonna discuss ALL available options)

Booyah, why are you not a fan of intercept tuning? Do you prefer ecm reflash tuning? Or just against tuning in general?
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Old 07-21-2015, 08:57 AM   #13
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I prefer flash tuning, simply for the fact it's one less thing to go wrong. Any kind of flash tuning that comes from a company with good credibility is fine by me. I've had too many vehicles come in going haywire and not running worth a **** for no discernible reason, only to find some dipstick had a tuner on it. A new ecm later and the truck runs fine, only to have the dipstick put the same tuner back on to f*ck it up again. Then accuse me of not fixing it. Tuners have become a complete pain in my a$$, because anybody with a pulse can hook up to the obd2 port and do it, yet they all disappear when it comes time to be accountable for the damage.

Anyways, I'll get off my soap box.

You can run the 235 tune on a SO pump(I think 235 actually used the SO pump). So go ahead and flash the higher hp tune. Anything more then that, and you should swap in the hard parts.

I've never monkeyed with the tunes on busses(never had a reason to). So I'm not sure how a 235hp truck tune will compare to a tune on a bus. I imagine they would be different(why would they make it simple) so rated torque and torque rise would be another thing I'd look at when swapping around.
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Old 07-21-2015, 07:30 PM   #14
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Yeah, I completely understand. No comment made was intended to be an attack or anything of the like. I enjoy some intelligent opinions/debate. Were good!

I do also agree with EVERYTHING youve said about any tuning period. Speaking from a shop point of view. It is impossible to convince an uneducated person about the possible bad effects of a tuner, and also near impossible to test for tuner separately for issues it may be causing related to ecm failure.

I wish our local CAT dealer would let me run some dyno pulls to actually see with REAL data the effects of the minor differences. Im after the education of the differences in tuning to compare with all the other ISBs (Dodge trucks) weve modified over the years.

I do know for fact (at least 2.5 years ago) that the HO (high output, Dodge 3500s w/manual) was a different pump OEM than the SO (standard output) and that timing was slightly modified within the VP to achieve a slightly higher output. And also that a SO pump will work in place of a HO with no adverse effects. But to speak for the ecm "tuning" differences, I cannot.

My next query is to the actual real world strength of my allison?
Mines a lock up capable MT643 and is in perfect mechanical condition. Ill be putting a call into my local trans parts warehouse to see if there are any upgradable parts or frictions to install and/or a way to increase holding capability. From what Ive read the transmission is capable of pretty extreme weights with a dismally low power input. So im a little concerned there. 250hp with 72k rated weight if i recall correctly? I plan on wayyyyy less weight with wayyyyy more power. I hope its not a recipe for some roached clutches
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Old 07-22-2015, 05:02 PM   #15
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Bro, I didn't take it as an attack, of course we're good. I was just venting because it pertained to the subject at hand. None of that was directed at you or anyone else on this forum.

Try and get cozy with the dyno operator, He's the one that'll unlock the place on a Saturday afternoon and let you have at it. Hell, if he's any good, he will throw a few pointers here and there while you do it.

Are you sure 235 was HO? I thought they only put the HO vp44 on the isb245 which started in 2001. All vp44's before that were all SO for both manuals and autos. Let me know what you think.

If I had to guess, the trans would be fine with an increase in hp, just don't increase the rated torque if you can. Auto transmissions are odd when it comes to rating them, and even more different when modifying. All I can tell you for sure is good luck!
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