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Old 07-15-2015, 06:55 PM   #1
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 8
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightshaker
Engine: Cummins 24V ISB 210
Rated Cap: 30k
24V Cummins ISB 210 Upgrades/Opinions

So my recently purchased freightliner dog nose has a 210 ISB (VP powered). Im very happy with the engine and was the entire reason I bought the bus. I was gonna swap it into a Dodge pick up to replace a low compression 53 block. Well guess what? Bus engine is a 53 block as well but with 78k on the bus and the great overall condition of the bus. Im going to run it and turn it into a dune trip/party bus with a flat bed and dirt bike hauling capabilities.

My 01 Dodge cummins (24V VP) is heavily modified and currently put out 600HP to rear wheels (dyno proven). Currently sports a big single turbo, big injectors, heavy tuning, built trans, blah blah.. Used 99% for towing 25-30k lbs with the occasional sled pulls/drag racing and just hot rodding.

My question:
My bus is rated at 30k. Ive been at that and over many times with my Dodge. So has anyone put any big power to an ISB with any positive results? And. Has anyone been able to tune a 24V without an OBII port? I know small "boost fooler" tuning is available but Id like to run a Edge for monitoring.

My plan/Build would be:
Small towing compounded turbos s300 over s400
RV injectors or similar
ARP head studs
New Exhaust Manifold (weird industrial wont work for compounds)
Water/Methanol Injection
Small Tuning (if available)

Sorry for the long post but just trying to gather notes and input from anyone before I take it head on. Just shooting for mileage and usable SAFE power.

Ive considered an 8.3 Swap but realized I have no interest in the bigger displacement. My 100% goal is to stick with the ISB and see what can be accomplished in a industrial platform. Good or Bad results.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:50 PM   #2
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There are several good Cummins performance forums around where the latest tricks are discussed. Mine is all mechanical with an inline pump so I can't comment directly, but adding a larger or second turbo along with upgrading the injectors seems to be a pretty common route for more grunt from what little I have read. No clue what has to take place on the computer side of those things.

Good luck with it and let us know what you discover.
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Old 07-16-2015, 09:49 AM   #3
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I'd talk to the tuners specifically. I'm not sure how they work or what they modify because I don't get involved in that(matter of fact, I stay far away from it). You'll have to see if they are strictly J1962 or if they can work on J1939 protocol. I'd assume they can work on both but you'll likely have to get a custom connector for your edge controller to mate to the 9 pin deutsch connector.

None of it would be impossible, but I think you'll be in uncharted territory. As for a safe power level, it's anyone's guess what that is. I know stock works reliably, but how far off stock you can go, especially in a bus is anyones guess. That's why I don't deal with tuners.
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:26 AM   #4
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:26 AM   #5
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Old 07-16-2015, 04:02 PM   #6
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nor Cal
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Year: 1999
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Chassis: Freightshaker
Engine: Cummins 24V ISB 210
Rated Cap: 30k
Yeah, I put in a call to edge. But they are extremely hit or miss on tech support since they become a larger company. I could almost see the guys blank stare when I brought up "J" protocols and asked about an adapter cable to adapt to OBDII. At this point I need to get gauges in there to monitor all of my vitals, BEFORE I do anything.

Looks like its gonna have to be standard autometer gauges for boost and pyro. I have a factory trans temp gauge but I will be adding another temp gauge and also an aux transmission cooler.

I think I may have also found a lead on a good used FASS 150 gph lift pump to eliminate low supply and hopefully prolong my VP as long as I can as its a fairly new pump thats on there.

Ill take plenty of pics on the fuel system install and also wiring in gauges for those interested.

And to answer crazycal .. I respond to either. Havent met too many other "dude bros" is the world.. HAHA
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Old 07-16-2015, 09:25 PM   #7
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My understanding.. and I reserve the right to be entirely incorrect... is that the Cummins ECM used in the Dodge application is not the same as the one used in the everything-else application. The Dodge version has one connector; the all-else I believe has two. I believe the OBDII port doesn't direct-connect to the Cummins ECM at all; one has to work through the Dodge PCM as a proxy to get there. (I haven't actually sat down with the factory service manual to verify in the wiring diagram, though.) For example, to use Cummins INSITE software with my '98 Dodge, the "Word on the Internet" was that the only way was to connect to the 3-pin Cummins CAN bus connector under the hood near the power steering pump. Even though the interface I was using had OBDII connectors they apparently couldn't be used.

The word I'd heard is that the Edge, BD, etc devices designed for Dodge-Cummins would work only in a Dodge truck, and not in vocational, RV, or stationary applications. I can imagine the silence that followed when you asked about J1507/1708/1939...

Poking around online a bit I'm getting the idea that there are programmers available for the non-Dodge Cummins applications, but they're different (and more expensive).
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Old 07-17-2015, 03:09 PM   #8
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Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nor Cal
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Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightshaker
Engine: Cummins 24V ISB 210
Rated Cap: 30k
Thats been my experience as well.. I could never get INSITE to read my dodge truck. again as you said. even with the correct OBDII adapter it just wouldnt communicate. I have a EDGE comp box from a 98.5-99 truck. as long as the MAP sensors are interchangeable the only other thing I will need to do is wire tap my vp for the timing modification. So after gauges. Ill prob start playing around.

My next question. What injectors are in my 210 rated bus. I have a set of stock 235 injectors that were factory in my 01 Dodge and also a set of RV275s. Its perplexing to me that the 275s are not installed factory given the application. So is the 210 a lower output due to smaller injectors or is it in the tuning? I I ran the ecm numbers and it is a ReCon Cummins Industrial ecm. still pretty inconclusive on overall compatibility for tuning.

But the 210 rating has me curious as to how it achieves that rating.

I guess I could call cummins with the ESN or pull the factory bosch p/n but that takes a little fun out of it, and if Im going to pull the injectors for that. I kinda want to put in a different set and see how it does
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Old 07-17-2015, 04:23 PM   #9
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I will be following this to see where it go's.

I'm a bit interested.

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Old 07-20-2015, 11:54 AM   #10
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Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 623
Year: 1984
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Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Dude, only tip I got for the fass is mount it as close to the tank as possible and below it if you can (not always easy). Then eliminate the lift pump on the side of the block. On a side note, I've had issues with fass motors not working but everybody else raves about them so....

I know in 1999, the cummins ecm communicated on the same ccd bus that the pcm, bcm, radio, cluster, etc. all communicated on. So you do have a port to the ecm through the obd connector. Now, I'm going to assume that the ecm would use the same j1962 protocol that the other modules use to communicate on that bus. That's how all of you're tuners connect to the ecm. To use the j1939/cummins insite, you'll have to use the cummins bus connector. Or figure out a way for insite to communicate on 1962 channel.

You'll have to talk to a brain/engineer at edge, not some tech support clown.

Family wagon, The ecm cummins used(number of ports 1,2,or even 3) depends on the number of pinout options the application required. The dodge truck ecm has just about all the pinouts on the ecm used. Your dodge trucks run a ccd data bus to the gauge cluster, while your busses run individual gagues. Those extra wires right there would have necessitated the upgrade to the 2 connector ecm on the busses and were not even counting all the other accessories that are on busses.

Dude, the power levels are primarily dictated by the pcm calibaration. Now each different power level may require different parts(pistons, injectors, injection pumps, manifolds, etc) to reach the rated rating. You can load the 275 horse tune into your 210 engine, and you will achieve a gain in hp. But how much more you'll gain I'm unsure of(I don't think it will be all 65hp). They also change those parts to increase durability too, so I would change the hard parts and the tune.

That comp box doesn't change anything in the ecm, It just fools the sensor inputs into the ecm, leading the ecm to believe it's operating in a different environment then what it actually is. I'm not a fan of them, but they do work.
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