Changing tranny fluid in an allison

Sunbear · 11-28-2016, 01:31 PM

Why does the shop think it will take 4 hrs at least to change the tranny fluid @$140 an hr?

2kool4skool · 11-28-2016, 01:55 PM

Took me maybe an hour.

Bring it by my place

Sunbear · 12-03-2016, 02:39 PM

Is there anything I should know like is there a certain torque on the bolts holding the pan

cadillackid · 12-03-2016, 07:05 PM

I never took the pan down to change the trans fluid... I just opened the drain plug.. should I have been taling it down? I always thought the external filters are the only filters.. or are there pan filters like in a car trans?

-Christopher

2kool4skool · 12-03-2016, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I never took the pan down to change the trans fluid... I just opened the drain plug.. should I have been taling it down? I always thought the external filters are the only filters.. or are there pan filters like in a car trans?

-Christopher

To quote a bus mech.
"If you change the EXTERNAL filter, and ATF (16 qts) every year, there is no reason to ever remove the pan and replace the internal filter. Unofficially of course, even the Allison reps will tell you that."

cadillackid · 12-04-2016, 08:17 AM

interesting because I didnt even know there was an internal filter.. this is good to know..

I have changed the fluid and spin-on;s in both of my busses but never changed the internal filters.. I think when they are up for fluid changes again I'll yank the pans and change the internal filters too just so I know where im starting from... who knows what the schools did or didnt do..

both busses the fluid was a nice red color and didnt smell burnt.. and both are from relatively flat areas where the transmissions likely saw pretty easy duty as far as school routes go...

im thinking in redbyrd of going to Transynd just because it is a good daily driver and probably if there was a bus I might consider going over the rockes in that would be the one.. it is much lighter weight and so less work and stress on its AT545..

-Christopher

cadillackid · 12-04-2016, 08:29 AM

another thing I keep reading online is people using ENGINE OIL in their allison transmissions!.. they claim the thinner engine oils can be used as trans fluid and stand up to heat better than standard dexron, and are cheaper than something like transynd..

they claim on some of the dodge forums that allison actually recommended it for severe duty!

this is the first ive ever heard of using engine oil in a tranny.. I guess I never thoght of engine oil as hydraulic fluid but the HEUI engines do it for the Fuel injection so maybe it can be a hydraulic fluid.. I just figured the detergents in engine oil would cause foaming in a transmission..

-Christopher

2kool4skool · 12-04-2016, 08:30 AM

Meets TES 295 and is cheaper.
Shell Spirax S6 ATF A295 - 5 Gallon Pail

cadillackid · 12-04-2016, 08:42 AM

that shell fluid looks interesting..

so what im understanding is that the high performance fluids can get Hotter and not break down?

Heat in automatic transmissions isnt killing the parts but is killing the fluid which then in-turn fails to properly lubricate the parts?

I need to get a trans temp gauge on the DEV, the one on redbyrd didnt work till recently.. and I havent had that bus over any mountains since I got the gauge working.. but normal city highway and in town driving on redbyrg the trans temp gauge brarely goes up to 130 or 140... I had thought it was going to 180 but I had the wrong sensor in it.. now the pan temp measured with my temp gun matches the dash gauge..

-Christopher

GreyCoyote · 12-04-2016, 09:29 AM

The Dodge Boys are an endless source of amusement for me. Sometimes they hit on a really neat trick, but mostly the "tricks" are just a waiting disaster in a bus. They arent pushing 12 tons up a grade routinely. Instead they are pulling stumps, hauling a horse trailer, or rolling coal and making noise to impress their friends. We are in two very different applications with different needs, even if the motor parts may interchange somewhat.

ATF and engine oil are two completely different engineered fluids designed for different things. If you could swap-in some Delo for Transynd, every school district in the nation would be doing it.

Fwiw, I have actually used synthetic oil in a trans. I used to race a VW Rabbit in SCCA GT3 in SoCal. Shift points were 8400 rpm and we got 200+ hp from 1600 ccs in a stock-based block. When Mobil One synthetic oil came out we jumped on it and stopped running over crankshafts. Awesome stuff. Then the Mobil rep told us to use it in the trans (5-speed manual), and we did. Worked great... As long as you changed it after every event because it sheared down fast. Talked to ANOTHER rep who suggested using ATF with a zinc/moly additive. This worked so well we never changed the fluid again. (Of course, the life of a transmission at race speeds was maybe 500 miles).

Back to the issue at hand: A complete fill of an Allison with TES-295 compatible fluid is less than $400 complete with filter and beer. The cheapest quality rebuilt trans for my bus is about $3500 sans labor.

I'll stick with what the factory recommends and leave the pretty bits of twisted metal on the coffee table for the Dodge Boys.

Experimenting is fine when you can just toss a broken vehicle onto a trailer and take it home for repair. Not so much when you weigh 12 tons and a tow is going to empty your wallet and piss-off the Missus something awful. Lol...

cadillackid · 12-04-2016, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyCoyote

The Dodge Boys are an endless source of amusement for me. Sometimes they hit on a really neat trick, but mostly the "tricks" are just a waiting disaster in a bus. They arent pushing 12 tons up a grade routinely. Instead they are pulling stumps, hauling a horse trailer, or rolling coal and making noise to impress their friends. We are in two very different applications with different needs, even if the motor parts may interchange somewhat.

ATF and engine oil are two completely different engineered fluids designed for different things. If you could swap-in some Delo for Transynd, every school district in the nation would be doing it.

Fwiw, I have actually used synthetic oil in a trans. I used to race a VW Rabbit in SCCA GT3 in SoCal. Shift points were 8400 rpm and we got 200+ hp from 1600 ccs in a stock-based block. When Mobil One synthetic oil came out we jumped on it and stopped running over crankshafts. Awesome stuff. Then the Mobil rep told us to use it in the trans (5-speed manual), and we did. Worked great... As long as you changed it after every event because it sheared down fast. Talked to ANOTHER rep who suggested using ATF with a zinc/moly additive. This worked so well we never changed the fluid again. (Of course, the life of a transmission at race speeds was maybe 500 miles).

Back to the issue at hand: A complete fill of an Allison with TES-295 compatible fluid is less than $400 complete with filter and beer. The cheapest quality rebuilt trans for my bus is about $3500 sans labor.

I'll stick with what the factory recommends and leave the pretty bits of twisted metal on the coffee table for the Dodge Boys.

Experimenting is fine when you can just toss a broken vehicle onto a trailer and take it home for repair. Not so much when you weigh 12 tons and a tow is going to empty your wallet and piss-off the Missus something awful. Lol...

Thank god no missus here!!!

but I dont like to break stuff... rather than actually trying it i was more curious than anything about engine oil used as hydraulic fluid... I have no idea what 'TES-295' even means.. nor do I know if there is a difference in tranny fluid brands.. dexron is whats in both busses now and its red and they both shift.. albeit the DEV has a nice hard truck shift that feels good.. and the new redbyrd seems to have more consumer-car like non-exciting shifts...

both AT545's I guess they vary ..since redbyrd is 10 years newer...

nevertheless I have never changed the inside filter on either.. and if im going to go to the trouble of draining out many gallons of fluid and cleaning up after such a mess myself.. by gosh im gonna put good stuff back in there..

as for the $$$ if I break a 545.. mine will be MUCH higher than $3500, because if I ruin a 545, a 545 is NOT going back in there.. more likely a 1000 will be going in there..

-Christopher

Sunbear · 12-04-2016, 01:05 PM

I dont think my bus has spin on filters

Sunbear · 12-04-2016, 01:09 PM

What I need to know is do I need a torque wrench to put the pan on?

Tango · 12-04-2016, 02:39 PM

It is a good idea to use a torque wrench on just about any aluminum connection. And...make sure to use a staggered tightening pattern. It is very easy to get the gasket wonky and create leaks on any pan. When I installed the oil pan on my 4BT I very carefully finger tightened all the bolts first, then went to half the recommended torque, then finally snugged them all.

You may also like: