odd Cummins oil-leak

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Stu & Filo. T

Ok, explain to me how, every time i've used it i only used a quick maybe half second shot, i'm not talking spraying half a can in there, I've had to use it on my 8.3 a few time & growing upon the farm when it was below zero we always threw a guick shot into the intake while turning them over. Plus I never spray then go turn over giving it a chance to sit I always start turning it over then spray, You may be right, Cummins may have a AD note on that I just personally haven't read or heard it before.

Well, the 5.9 uses a small heater grid in the intake as opposed to glow plugs. That alone could cause the starting fluid to ignite while still in the intake system.

Also, it's impossible for a manufacturer to control how much starting fluid someone uses. The 5.9 is not exactly a high displacement engine. A "Quick shot" on an 8.3 or larger engine may be fine, on a 5.9 it might be enough to blow the head off of it. Remember, these engines have pretty high compression ratios, and diesel fuel is injected at a measured rate for a controlled burn. Starting fluid will just explode in the cylinder. Also, there is no throttling, even if it didn't ruin the engines or catch fire, once the engine starts, it could over rev for a few seconds (with low or no oil pressure at that) until the starting fluid burns off.

Long story short, Cummins engineers say not to do it, and they know the engine better than I do. Do what you will, but if something bad happens, you can't honestly say you weren't warned.

[Stu & Filo. T]

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

Well, the 5.9 uses a small heater grid in the intake as opposed to glow plugs. That alone could cause the starting fluid to ignite while still in the intake system.

Also, it's impossible for a manufacturer to control how much starting fluid someone uses. The 5.9 is not exactly a high displacement engine. A "Quick shot" on an 8.3 or larger engine may be fine, on a 5.9 it might be enough to blow the head off of it. Remember, these engines have pretty high compression ratios, and diesel fuel is injected at a measured rate for a controlled burn. Starting fluid will just explode in the cylinder. Also, there is no throttling, even if it didn't ruin the engines or catch fire, once the engine starts, it could over rev for a few seconds (with low or no oil pressure at that) until the starting fluid burns off.

Long story short, Cummins engineers say not to do it, and they know the engine better than I do. Do what you will, but if something bad happens, you can't honestly say you weren't warned.

Yes i can understand Engineers saying don't do it to release themselves of liability
I can also see how someone loading up the intake with a can full & it going BOOM, it's like anything else requiring common sense which is hard to find anymore. Kinda like the guy who's decides to cut into their gas line & first thing they do is light a cigarette

[cadillackid]

a little PB blaster or WD40 sprayed in (not a lot).. will also fire over easier than diesel fuel but not as quickly as ether... kind of a middle ground.

-Christopher

[dredman]

been reading a good deal about these topics, and most of it is reflected here, good to know I have so many resources whenever I feel I have reached the end - just knowing WHAT to look for is such a HUGE help.

this is all great info

[dredman]

quick update:
been parked in Montrose for 3 days, as I had no problem cranking at lower altitudes, I began to suspect 10k feet was the issue. Since I could not get the concern out of my mind since leaving Grand Mesa (hard, smoky start at 10k feet), decided to crank it for giggles this morning - single bump, cranks right up with no smoke!!!

Looks like I can climb over 10k passes but need to camp at lower elevations?

Now I can go have fun!!!

[milkmania]

That's great news!

[Tango]

Just chatted with someone who had similar high altitude starting issues. He made a suggestion that might help since your engine is not computer controlled. His was a turboed 3208 Cat with an intake heater instead of glow plugs similar to what I believe you mentioned your rig had.

His fix was to cycle the key three times back to back without starting which will raise the intake temp up to max...then crank it.

He said it helped him in spite of not really making any sense. The real problem, according to him, is that at high elevations the air is simply less dense. And since diesels rely on pressure to ignite the mix, starting with less pressure means there will be less on the power stroke. He did say that it was also very like a symptom of tired rings as they would contribute greatly to lower pressure which would be much more of an issue at high altitudes.

Don't know if this helps any, but there it is.

[dredman]

Originally Posted by Tango

Just chatted with someone who had similar high altitude starting issues. He made a suggestion that might help since your engine is not computer controlled. His was a turboed 3208 Cat with an intake heater instead of glow plugs similar to what I believe you mentioned your rig had.

His fix was to cycle the key three times back to back without starting which will raise the intake temp up to max...then crank it.

He said it helped him in spite of not really making any sense. The real problem, according to him, is that at high elevations the air is simply less dense. And since diesels rely on pressure to ignite the mix, starting with less pressure means there will be less on the power stroke. He did say that it was also very like a symptom of tired rings as they would contribute greatly to lower pressure which would be much more of an issue at high altitudes.

Don't know if this helps any, but there it is.

Funny I did cycle more than six times on Grand Mesa and that failed to provide any help and I really like that idea before I tried it damn it. I am convinced it is probably a ring issue except it never smokes at low altitude or at least at lower altitude so that is troubling also. All I know at this point is that I will try to stay at 6000 feet or below and keep pushing this bus around the country till it explodes into a mushroom cloud

[Dragonpop]

My bus is equipped with a flame starting system which ignites a
small amount of fuel in the intake to bring up the air temp for
cold starts. Therefore I will forgo any application of starting
fluids when cold starting my 8.3L Cummins. Can't find any info
on the system other a mention in the bus manual and a sticker
on the intake air tube.

[milkmania]

I'm needing to locate liquid ether, I guess.


Oh great.... Probably gonna need a prescription

Diethyl ether, more commonly known as ether, is a common solvent which has found use as a recreational drug due to its dissociative and euphoric effects, quick onset of effects and its short-lived nature. It can be psychologically addictive. Aside from its volatility and flammable nature, diethyl ether can cause nausea, toxicity to the organs, and death, which is why contemporary anasthetics are used instead of ether.

[milkmania]

Pretty good info here... For those so inclined to use starting fluid at higher altitudes
Excerpt:

There are several variables that influence the ability of a diesel engine to start. When diesel equipment is maintained in proper mechanical condition, the most influential outside sources that affect the engine's start ability are:
1. The temperature of the engine.
2. The cetane rating of the diesel fuel. 3. The atmospheric pressure.

https://www.koldban.com/v/vspfiles/a...nts/131087.pdf

[milkmania]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

a little PB blaster or WD40 sprayed in (not a lot).. will also fire over easier than diesel fuel but not as quickly as ether... kind of a middle ground.

-Christopher

WD-40 changed their formulation a few years back... I used to use it to diagnose small engines. Last time I tried it, it did not ignite on a known good engine.
They may have reapplied their formula, I just haven't tried it again in a few years.

[milkmania]

Discussion:
WD40 Not As Flammable? - Survivalist Forum

[Famousinternetjesus]

Originally Posted by dredman

Funny I did cycle more than six times on Grand Mesa and that failed to provide any help and I really like that idea before I tried it damn it. I am convinced it is probably a ring issue except it never smokes at low altitude or at least at lower altitude so that is troubling also. All I know at this point is that I will try to stay at 6000 feet or below and keep pushing this bus around the country till it explodes into a mushroom cloud

Ha! But don't do that!! Try this?

http://www.mining-technology.com/contractors/transportation/cost-effective-maintenance/pressengines-blow-by-problems.html


Maybe you ran some particularly bad fuel?

i didn't read this entire thread, people have probably suggested things like that already so my bad if that isn't helpful. But id hate to see someone blow their engine up or give up on their bus.

[cadillackid]

I looked and the can of stuff I have is PB-blaster.. I only used it before i realized that the start issue on my bus was the fuel pump losing prime.. it only does it once in a while.. once I disvocered that I just pumped it prime with the hand pump and its all good... i also had found a slight leak in a line, I still keep that can of PB-Blaster in the bus in case.. I had remembered the WD-40 from many many years ago as a kid getting our international scout diesel started in minus 15 degree weather... way before WD-40 changed their formula..

-Christopher

[GreyCoyote]

I'll relate a recent experience for the benefit of the group. Far from scientific proof, but maybe useful as an anecdote.

I was at Burningman this year (4500 feet) and started the bus daily for a few minutes just out of an abundance of caution. One morning it was 33 degrees and the bus had a very hard time starting and smoked a bit after starting. It had been getting harder to start for several days, and the difficulty increased with decreasing temperature. However, during the daytime, with temperatures in the upper 80's or 90's, it would pop right off. Note this is a 1998/99 DT466 with the HEUI injection system and three new Group 31's installed (it will start on just one at sea level and shirt-sleeve temps, but you know... overkill!!!)

I always run the Power Service additive in the silver jug as a matter of course, but my last fill-up was abbreviated and I didnt add the usual PS juice as there was a HUGE line of Burners behind me. Whoops. So once I finally got it started and running on the playa, I decided to add a quart to the 40-something gallons still in the tank and just let it idle until the temps came up.

The next morning it was 34F... and the bus started on the first or second revolution. The idle was slightly rough for about 5 seconds, but after that it was just another day in the life. No smoke. The **only** difference was the presence of the Power Service additive. Nothing else had changed. The bus hadnt moved an inch.

The mechanic in Fernley (who replaced my fan clutch) didnt think this was at all unusual. His comment was the refiners were not yet blending winter fuels and the cetane locally was "always on the low side anyway". His solution was the same as mine: run a cetane booster if its going to get cold.

Note this isnt a plug for a particular product. Instead it may suggest a direction for some cheap, no-harm "armchair" troubleshooting. Add 1 quart of PS silver to 50 gals of fuel, let it mix into the system, and then see if the problem persists.

My gut tells me Dred is fighting a fuel problem. Perhaps this will prove/disprove that theory.

[dredman]

Originally Posted by GreyCoyote

I'll relate a recent experience for the benefit of the group. Far from scientific proof, but maybe useful as an anecdote.

My gut tells me Dred is fighting a fuel problem. Perhaps this will prove/disprove that theory.

I could buy a fuel problem? But this is my second tank, and I had no issues in Grand Junction (6k feet) or Montrose. All my issues have been above or around 10k feet. Could still be a fuel issue I guess, combined with altitude.

Nevertheless I like all these new ideas, i will entertain and try just about anything (except a rebuild )

[Tango]

Sounds like a mix of issues which makes it much harder to diagnose. The additional cranking time as well as some extra smoke are common to most non-computer diesels at higher altitudes (typically about 5000 feet and up). The "E" engines are supposed to compensate for altitude. Add in lower compression caused by worn rings and they can be a real beotch to get cranked. Then there is the lift pump...if it is weak, you may not be getting adequate fuel to fire off. Even having the timing off a little bit could easily make starting at altitude difficult. Any combination of the above (as well as a few other things) are very likely contributing factors.

Wish I could offer a simple fix, but I think this one calls for a savvy diesel tech to sort out. Hang in there Dred.

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Dred, if it were me, I'd be trying some fuel additive, especially knowing summer fuel (typically lower cetane) is still being sold ... I've used Power Service before (former boss loved the stuff) but there are other additives equally as good. "Winter blend" fuel will be available soon, typically blended with somewhat higher cetane, and most refiners put in some anti-gel additives. Most companies will have drivers put in some additive every fill-up whenever the weather is predicted to drop below a certain temp. Blends may vary be region and refiner. Folks living in south Florida may wonder "Why do we need anti-gel in our fuel? It never drops below 50 here" ... but that trucker who filled up earlier may be in Michigan the next day where it dropped to -10 overnight.

For my 9 Liter IH, I'm sure I will run some sort of additive - not because of cetane and starting issues (after all, a 9L runs no glow/preheater system and is rated to start down to like 10 degrees; it is a Direct Injection design), but because the system is a 30 year old design and modern fuel lacks the same lubrication properties of "The Old Stuff" - I need something to keep the old hardware from excessive wear.

[dredman]

Originally Posted by Tango

Sounds like a mix of issues which makes it much harder to diagnose. Hang in there Dred.

Thanks Tango - it is a struggle now, but I am trying my best to hang in there - at the top of the world