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Old 08-28-2018, 07:03 PM   #21
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cummins, gear ration and sixspeed

With the 245/70r19.5 the 3.73 rear end sixth gear should be 1875rpm at 65mph

fifth should be 2525 rpm at 65mph

expect if not enough torque in 5th at 2525 the rpm will drop until torque peak is reached, or the next lower gear.

i have not seen 3.90 rear gears for my axle, but I know I can get 4.10

but at only 11,000 lbs and the bullet butt bus with undertrays I expect to be able to cruise at 65 mph/

william

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Old 08-28-2018, 11:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ennonne View Post
Lots of good info here. But, just what axle is in it? Meritor? It's a Q-bus? What year? Anyone know? I know my motorhome has a Dana S135. Knowing that, I've found I could switch to a few ratios with just a ring and pinion swap, others need a whole new carrier. I'm sure similar information could be found for whatever axle this is.
Ennonne,

The axle is a dana/spicer j230sb. It uses the same carrier as the j220. Many ratios are availble for this axle. My carrier is compatible with 4.78 to 8.17 I haven't checked availability or pricing but spicer does offer factory rebuilt carriers. If its not too pricy this is the option I would go with as they come set up from the factory.

If the complete carrier is too expensive then I'll get the 4.78 ring and pinion kit and the rebuild kit which includes all the seals and bearing. I'll then have to take my time and learn how to properly set up a diff.

I attached a picture of my carrier tag and screen shots from of the spicer parts book.


Ted
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf View Post
do it!!!

do a ring swap for us all to see!

i think that's the least changed item on all our wish lists and i'd like to see more of them. it makes the most sense to squeeze the speed that we desire out of them.
It will either be a ring and pinion swap or a carrier swap. The whole carrier would be easier and faster but more expensive. There are some good you tube videos on how to put a diff together and how to set it up correctly.

Ted
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
I have driven my 8.3/MD3060 equipped A3RE in town quite a bit and a couple of trips over the mountains.

I have 5.38 gears and would love to have 6th gear unlocked. I would, however, be reluctant to go a whole lot taller on the rear gears for fear of losing around town drivability.
Steve,

That is my concern as well. Right now my combined gearing in 5th is at 5.37 which is where yours is geared in 4th. 5.38 seems to be a good ratio for pulling long steep grades. I can easily hold around 45 to 50 at 2200 rpm and thats with out the pedal to the floor

I'm leaning toward 4.78 as It would give me about 65 at 1800 rpm if I can get 6th gear and then on a long hill the tranny could down shift to 5th rpm could come up to 2000 and maintain 65. Another downshift to 4th could maintain 50 at 2100 rpm. I think keeping the gearing low enough for the engine to build rpms for peak power for hill climbimg and gearing high enough to drop rpms on the flats will give a good combination of economy and gradability.

Ted
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:31 AM   #25
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ive set up diffs myself.. I have the special toolkits required to do it because I built a lot of hotrods.. but if I was just doing one, I would buy the gears, remove the 3rd member and take it to a drive line shop and have them set it up and replace any pressable bearings.. then put the 3rd member back in.. or you mnay be able to find a bus with a good 3rd member with 4.78's already.. 4.78 is a pretty common ratio in school busses.. esp slightly older ones without overdrive.
-Christopher



-Christopher
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:51 AM   #26
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Great, you've obviously found a lot if information for it.

I was lucky enough to find a complete center section for my axle, new, for $250, only $1/pound! I was very lucky. As you have found new ring and pinions are very expensive. Used dropouts are around, but often have a zillion miles on them, tough to find a decent one.

The first document I found on the J230 axle shows it to be pretty similar to my S135. Real easy to setup, there's adjustments on the side carrier bearings, no assembling, checking, disassembling, reassembling and checking again like most car diffs. You even have a shim on the pinion to set the depth, doesn't appear to be a crush washer that has to be changed. Just pop out the pinion and change the shim. (My S135 has NO pinion depth adjustment, less to setup, but noisy as the contact pattern and backlash are a compromise. I'm jealous of the shim setup.)
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Old 08-30-2018, 10:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
I have driven my 8.3/MD3060 equipped A3RE in town quite a bit and a couple of trips over the mountains.

I have 5.38 gears and would love to have 6th gear unlocked. I would, however, be reluctant to go a whole lot taller on the rear gears for fear of losing around town drivability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
ive set up diffs myself.. I have the special toolkits required to do it because I built a lot of hotrods.. but if I was just doing one, I would buy the gears, remove the 3rd member and take it to a drive line shop and have them set it up and replace any pressable bearings.. then put the 3rd member back in.. or you mnay be able to find a bus with a good 3rd member with 4.78's already.. 4.78 is a pretty common ratio in school busses.. esp slightly older ones without overdrive.
-Christopher



-Christopher
Thanks Chistopher,

Your right it does take some specialized tools. I jusy read through the tear down/rebuild instructions for my carrier. The dial indicator and torque wrench I can get. The 50 ton rivot press and die needed to attach the ring gear I do not know where to get.

Ted
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:34 AM   #28
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We had two 1989 Blue Bird All American RE's that had 3208T 250HP engines with the MT643 automatic with 4.10 gears.

They would cruise down the highway as fast as you were willing to push them but any hill and you started slowing down right away. Get on a steep hill and you were dropping gears pretty fast.

I wonder if the inline power characteristics of the ISC might help a little on hill climbing but that isn't a lot of HP to move that much bus up any sort of grade.
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach View Post
We had two 1989 Blue Bird All American RE's that had 3208T 250HP engines with the MT643 automatic with 4.10 gears.

They would cruise down the highway as fast as you were willing to push them but any hill and you started slowing down right away. Get on a steep hill and you were dropping gears pretty fast.

I wonder if the inline power characteristics of the ISC might help a little on hill climbing but that isn't a lot of HP to move that much bus up any sort of grade.
Cowlitzcoach,

I think your right the ISC should have more torque than a 3208 and do better on a hill. I think with a 4.10 it would be downshifting on slight hills.

Ted
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:32 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach View Post
We had two 1989 Blue Bird All American RE's that had 3208T 250HP engines with the MT643 automatic with 4.10 gears.

They would cruise down the highway as fast as you were willing to push them but any hill and you started slowing down right away. Get on a steep hill and you were dropping gears pretty fast.

I wonder if the inline power characteristics of the ISC might help a little on hill climbing but that isn't a lot of HP to move that much bus up any sort of grade.
I have a similar situation with a truck with 5.9, NV5600, 22.5's and 3.73 gears.

Notably overgeared for my application. Since the 22.5's went on I rarely get to use 6th gear.

If I am running 60mph in 6th (unloaded) and hit a little hill my EGTs climb enough to cause me to drop a gear. With 18k lbs of trailer behind it struggles just a bit off the line in 1st.

If I were primarily hauling with this truck I would probably throw 4.56's in it.
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Old 09-02-2018, 05:25 PM   #31
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pnw steve rear diffs

What rear axle do you have? I have a dana/spicer s110 rear axle with 4.88 gears. When I get these out to swap my rear gears. ........

william
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Old 09-02-2018, 07:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnakansas View Post
What rear axle do you have? I have a dana/spicer s110 rear axle with 4.88 gears. When I get these out to swap my rear gears. ........

william
Thanks William,

My truck is 4x4 and I don't haul with it nearly as much as I used to. I'm going to live with it the way it is.

I wanted to illustrate that, while taller can be better, you can go too far.
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:25 PM   #33
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I got some pricing back from a local shop for regearing my carrier with 4.78 gears. Using Spicer OEM parts the ring and pinion would be $305 and the bearing/rebuild kit would be $450. The parts guy thoughr labor would be around $1000. So around $1755 total. He says their diff tech has been there for 40 years and does excellent work. They have a 2 year warranty on work.

The same shop is also pricing me an aftermarket reman carrier. They are still waiting to hear back from thier supplier but the parts guy thinks it will be about the same price as above but will not be OEM parts. Also a 2 year warranty.

They are also going to check if a spicer factory reman is available.

I'm leaning toward having it rebuilt in house. I like having the OEM parts and someonethat is local with expirence putting it together.

The other decision to make is to lock or not to lock?

NoSPIN® Differentials - Vehicle - Eaton

The eaton No-Spin is available for my axle for an additional $1000. Since I plan on using the bus in the winter on roads that are not always well maintained it may be worth it. The parts guy said they have installed several on cattle trucks that spend most of thier time on the highway but need extra traction driving into a pasture to load or unload. Anybody have any expirence with these?

Thanks

Ted
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:12 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJones View Post
I got some pricing back from a local shop for regearing my carrier with 4.78 gears. Using Spicer OEM parts the ring and pinion would be $305 and the bearing/rebuild kit would be $450. The parts guy thoughr labor would be around $1000. So around $1755 total. He says their diff tech has been there for 40 years and does excellent work. They have a 2 year warranty on work.

The same shop is also pricing me an aftermarket reman carrier. They are still waiting to hear back from thier supplier but the parts guy thinks it will be about the same price as above but will not be OEM parts. Also a 2 year warranty.

They are also going to check if a spicer factory reman is available.

I'm leaning toward having it rebuilt in house. I like having the OEM parts and someone that is local with experience putting it together.

The other decision to make is to lock or not to lock?

NoSPIN® Differentials - Vehicle - Eaton

The eaton No-Spin is available for my axle for an additional $1000. Since I plan on using the bus in the winter on roads that are not always well maintained it may be worth it. The parts guy said they have installed several on cattle trucks that spend most of their time on the highway but need extra traction driving into a pasture to load or unload. Anybody have any experience with these?

Thanks

Ted

This looks to be a bus-sized version of the Detroit Locker, which is well known in the off-road and four-wheel-drive community. I have no familiarity with this particular unit, but the Detroit Lockers work very well and exactly as advertised. One word of caution - they do have a "ratcheting" action when rounding a corner (which may or may not be audible), and it leaves the outer wheel to coast as it is spinning faster than the inner wheel. This is not necessarily a Bad Thing, but it *WILL* alter somewhat the way the vehicle handles and negotiates the road - as I recall, not in a bad way, but just different (the outer wheel free-wheels as it's turning faster, so it's not propelling the car).


The first time it saves you from getting stuck and a big wrecker bill (and several hours of your life), you'll be glad you spent the extra for it.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:45 AM   #35
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Definitely go with the locker if you re-gear the existing carrier.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur View Post
This looks to be a bus-sized version of the Detroit Locker, which is well known in the off-road and four-wheel-drive community. I have no familiarity with this particular unit, but the Detroit Lockers work very well and exactly as advertised. One word of caution - they do have a "ratcheting" action when rounding a corner (which may or may not be audible), and it leaves the outer wheel to coast as it is spinning faster than the inner wheel. This is not necessarily a Bad Thing, but it *WILL* alter somewhat the way the vehicle handles and negotiates the road - as I recall, not in a bad way, but just different (the outer wheel free-wheels as it's turning faster, so it's not propelling the car).


The first time it saves you from getting stuck and a big wrecker bill (and several hours of your life), you'll be glad you spent the extra for it.
Thats what I'm thinking. I'd be very angry with myself the first time I got stuck and didn't put the locker in.

Ted
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:20 PM   #37
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I got a chance to play with the gearing calculator in cummins power spec. I had to pretend my ISC was an ISL as they must not sell new ISCs anymore. I was able to match the 260 hp for my engine but the lowest torque for the ISL was 760 lb ft. My ISC is 660 lb ft so I set a higher weight for my bus than I plan on having and will use the results conservatively. I found that if I can get 6th unlocked 5.38 would give me the best cruising rpm and a smoother shift to the gear down. If I can't get 6th unlocked 4.78 would be best. I think I'll hold off on my gearing swap and give myself a little more time to see if there is a way to get 6th.

Ted
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Old 04-09-2019, 08:29 AM   #38
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Best of luck getting 6th unlocked. I’ve got a 4.78 rear in my bus (full size IH 3800 dog nose) with an AT545 and it does alright. Mine was a PA bus oddly enough. Lots of short steep hills but still can do highway speeds.
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