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Old 02-18-2007, 01:16 PM   #1
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Pull Coil Timer Module on 5,9?


Regarding my Cummins 5.9, circa 1992; the Fuel Shutoff Solenoid seems to be
controlled thru a "Pull Coil Timer Module". What does it do?

It's a black box, about 2" square and 1/2" thick, with three wires, mounted near
the Fuel Solenoid.

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Old 02-19-2007, 05:11 PM   #2
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Aha. Sounds like there are two coils in the solenoid. A strong coil for pulling it
open to start, and a less powerful coil for holding it open while running. The "start"
coil draws a lot of amps and will eventually overheat if it stays on. Makes sense. Thanks!
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:01 PM   #3
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Does it need to "cam over" or something? I don't understand why it would take more force to open it initially versus holding it open. Does the fuel pressure help maybe? I've just never looked that closely at my solenoid. You must not have a "Pull to Shut Off" lever if you have a solenoid. I just turn my key off to kill my engine, but it appears many people must pull the lever. I haven't decided which system I like better. Mine is more "automotive" and convenient, but the other system can run indefinitely without a battery as long as the engine is running....
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:59 PM   #4
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Well, I don't know the details, but it make sense to me that to move the solenoid
plunger a distance requires more force than to hold it still in one spot. (The solenoid
is operated automatically by the ignition switch.)

I drove many of the good old fashioned Caterpillar mechanical 3406, and there was a
knob on the fuel pump that could be turned a quarter turn by hand and the engine
would run without electricity. Very handy, yes.
On my mechanical Cummins 5.9, the solenoid operates a linkage to the fuel pump, and
that linkage can be moved by hand if necessary -- even tied in the on position, I suppose.
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Old 02-19-2007, 10:17 PM   #5
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Now for my $.02

Spring force is calculated as (1/2) k*x^2 where k=the spring constant and x=the distance it is moved from its neutral free arch position (stretched or compressed, basically).

Let;s say that spring needs to move a total of 3 inches. That means that to hold it open it will require 9 times the force the spring puts on the closed valve. The "opening" solenoid will go through an exponential force increase as it travels from 0-3 inches of extension on the spring. The max force required will be at the point at which it is maxed...3 inches. A solenoid holding it there, but not moving it would still require the same amount of force to hold it open. Ahh....but this is assuming linear travel.

Perhaps (and most likely) the linkage travels around a path of a curve of sorts. In this fashion, when the spring is extended 3 inches, the linkage itself is now feeling both a vertical and horizontal component of force. The force derived from the (1/2) k * x^2 equation might no longer be acting entirely to try and close the solenoid. Instead it will be fighting a static force from the bearing or bushing or whatever is holding the pivoting arm. In this way the maximum force the solenoid must overcome would be somewhere in the process of opening while a lesser force may be required to hold it open. This is what I meant by camming over. It is a similar idea to how our air brakes work. When the pushrod is at a 90 degree, the brakes shoes are applying the maximum clamping force for a given air pressure in the chambers.

Darn you, Elliot! Now I want to go look at my solenoid.

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Old 02-19-2007, 11:14 PM   #6
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You're welcome.

Yes, camming over or some such. I'm no engineer; I just go out under the shade tree
and imagine stuff. Here, I imagine a big heave-ho, a click, and a lesser force required
to hold it there after the heave-ho is over. Like a weight lifter getting the barbell all the
way up to where his arms are straight.

And darn you; now I need to come up with some funny faux scientificated formula.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:47 PM   #7
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Well...if it's the weightlifter theory, then the spring force would be divided into the horizontal and vertical components and the force required would be less.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_experience03
Now for my $.02

Spring force is calculated as (1/2) k*x^2 where k=the spring constant and x=the distance it is moved from its neutral free arch position (stretched or compressed, basically).

Let;s say that spring needs to move a total of 3 inches. That means that to hold it open it will require 9 times the force the spring puts on the closed valve. The "opening" solenoid will go through an exponential force increase as it travels from 0-3 inches of extension on the spring. The max force required will be at the point at which it is maxed...3 inches. A solenoid holding it there, but not moving it would still require the same amount of force to hold it open. Ahh....but this is assuming linear travel.

Perhaps (and most likely) the linkage travels around a path of a curve of sorts. In this fashion, when the spring is extended 3 inches, the linkage itself is now feeling both a vertical and horizontal component of force. The force derived from the (1/2) k * x^2 equation might no longer be acting entirely to try and close the solenoid. Instead it will be fighting a static force from the bearing or bushing or whatever is holding the pivoting arm. In this way the maximum force the solenoid must overcome would be somewhere in the process of opening while a lesser force may be required to hold it open. This is what I meant by camming over. It is a similar idea to how our air brakes work. When the pushrod is at a 90 degree, the brakes shoes are applying the maximum clamping force for a given air pressure in the chambers.

Darn you, Elliot! Now I want to go look at my solenoid.


Wow, you just gave me a headache
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:08 PM   #9
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. . .My pencil broke. . .
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Old 02-21-2007, 01:01 AM   #10
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Old 02-21-2007, 08:02 AM   #11
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roasting8
Squared to the cubed power ! (roflmao!!!)
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Old 02-21-2007, 10:15 PM   #13
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And all I did was ask a simple question.

Hey Sexton, thanks for looking up the answer!
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:54 AM   #14
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Man, I'm STILL laughing! May I have permission to copy & disseminate you computation sheet, and if so, can you email me a large copy of the image that won't pixillate so badly when I enlarge it and frame for my office as my next motivational poster!?!

Seriously, I want a printable copy and permission to share it with others. I haven't laughed that hard since the Great Bottle Rocket Battle of 1979 (long story).
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Old 02-22-2007, 08:52 AM   #15
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It is actually from a friend of mine. It's amazing what frustrated students will do. What's worse is that you know you're going down the wrong track like that, but the calculator makes it so easy to just keep right on going. I'll e-mail you a copy ASAP.
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Old 02-22-2007, 08:53 AM   #16
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Ok, I lied. PM me an addy to send it to since I can't attach files via the board's e-mail system.
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:00 PM   #17
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THANKS!! Please launch it to me at thiss address:
mailto:griff@thewhiteelephantstale.com
and a tip-o-the-hat to you and your friend!
(I'm chuckling again already in anticipation, that page really strikes a chord!)
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Old 03-05-2007, 01:57 AM   #18
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According to a post I found on the Dodge Cummins forum, it takes 40 Amps to pull
the solenoid in, and only 2 Amps to hold it there.
We keep learning!
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Old 03-05-2007, 03:57 AM   #19
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let me tell you a story about my 6.6 liter ford skoolie engine in downtown san fran about 3 am......

driving along, tired as can be, grouchy, looking for a place to park a bus in downtown san fran. Ever been there? there is no parking for a full size skoolie in that city! Anyhow....as i am making a right hand turn my engine dies. just like someone turned the key off. This has me very puzzled since the mechanically injected diesel doesn't need 12 volts to run. When i turn the key, the engine will 'fire' but as soon as the starter is no longer engaged the engine dies. hmmmm. Eventually i have someone else turn the engine over while i watch what happens under the hood and i notice that this little lever on the side of the engine (more correctly on the side of the injector pump) moves when the engine begins to fire, but returns to it's resting spot when the starter is no longer engaged. What i didn't realize i was looking at was the fuel shutoff solenoid. Being the electrical genius that i am, I cut the wires going to the solenoid and connected a 12 volt hot wire to each wire until i found the one that made the lever move back and forth or perhaps worded more correctly made the solenoid actuate. At this point, i wanted to go to bed hours ago, i'm still really grouchy, and i'm still in downtown san fran parked in an illegal parking spot with a bus that doesn't run. After twisting the proper wires together and thus making the little solenoid do it's thing i turn the key.......low and behold the bus starts right up! I was excited to say the least. in the hours i spent before this blessed moment working on the engine, i did call good sam club for a tow truck....the soonest they could get one to me was 6 hours....

back to the story.....

after letting the bus run for about 1 minute and jumping up and down in excitement i begin to smell something burning. It was the unmistakable smell of burning electrical wires.....hmmm??? I open the hood and touch the wires i had just connected to the fuel solenoid and they are approximately a million degrees. Of coarse i didn't use a fuse or anything......I disconnect the wires and the bus engine dies immediately.....UGGGGGGG. What i didn't know then is that there are two separate coils that make the fuel shutoff solenoid work. The pull coil, which i had "hot" wired (pun intended) which was obviously not meant to stay on for long periods of time, and the broken coil that is supposed to hold the solenoid open.

Long story short, i disconnected the solenoid and used a bunjee cord attached to the fuel shutoff lever to keep the engine running all the way from california to michigan. After i got home i connected a manual pull handle in place of the electric solenoid.

it's nice to learn about these sorts of things BEFORE you experience them!
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Old 03-05-2007, 11:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
it's nice to learn about these sorts of things BEFORE you experience them!
Yup, that's why I started this inquiry in the first place!

Now, have I ever been to San Francisco with a large vehicle? Well, I spent eight
years making deliveries in San Francisco with a 65 foot 18-wheeler -- backing into
loading docks over sidewalks and between parked cars and.... Does that count?

More ranting: When I was a youngster in Norway, the throttle cable on my Lambretta
motor scooter froze on my way to work one snowy morning. I tied a string to the
lever on the carburetor and worked that with my foot for a few days.

Life is good!
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