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Old 08-17-2019, 01:21 AM   #1
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BLM lands future

So being fairly young I might be one of the people included in the “ bandwagon .”
There’s probably a lot more van life and mobile housing now . I expected to be able to save for a few years and find a job either free lance labor or something digitally .

Now I’m beginning to think what if I build this bus out and me and thousands of others all expect the same thing .
To travel and use blm land sites for off grid , boo docking.
Then the gov. Puts restrictions in place.
I’m still taking the chance but this video got me thinking ....
https://youtu.be/jxea05CrnaU

I was expecting to visit national parks and travel around for awhile and I still hope in being able to do so.

Any thoughts y’all might have that relate?
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Old 08-17-2019, 01:47 AM   #2
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Attacked from all sides wanting to exploit it or preserve it, everyone should be saying to the overzealous - itís not yours itís all of ours. Itís not yours for your corporation to strip or graze without true compensation and itís not yours for your conservancy to fence off.

Itís the last frontier of land to grab. Tell them all to keep their mitts off!
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:49 AM   #3
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I would imagine that the amount of land available for public "use" will end up being reduced as time goes on. I also believe that there will always be available land, but getting a spot for camping/boondocking will be much more difficult.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:10 AM   #4
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Yeah I think as time goes on it’s either going to be restricted for conservancy . And there will be limited spots to go .And then you might not be able to find solitude . Or a spot to yourself . Hopefully that won’t happen for a few years.
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:09 PM   #5
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Well, you just have to stay away from the most popular spots. When I went to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon in 1961, I thought it was way too crowded then. So I have never been back and have no desire whatsoever to go again. And I am talking before I saw this video about crowding in National Parks. After the video I am even more convinced.
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:28 PM   #6
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I think there are two separate problems - overcrowding, and conservation.

People are ALWAYS going to flock to the big-name parks - the grand canyon, yellowstone, etc. They're the parks with the big names, and the big attractions. I've never been, and I'm sure they're amazing - but with a little planning, I bet there are also a lot of amazing parks that don't draw the huge crowds. If you want to see something particular, sometimes you have to go to a particular park. If you just want to see something interesting, there are a lot of choices. (For example, I've been to Niagara Falls. It was pretty amazing - but it doesn't mean that I've suddenly lost interested in seeing any other smaller waterfall again. That two mile hike down the path somewhere in New Hampshire was just as exciting and fun.)

I'm not sure what to do about the conservation aspect being a problem. I was listening to some discussions/debates about it - the idea that some land needs to be protected in it's natural state, while other land should be public land - meaning it shouldn't be bulldozed for houses or construction, but it should still be open for the public to enjoy. I honestly don't know enough about it to really come down either way (to say we should be doing more of one, or less of the other) - I think both are important. Its really important to protect the land in the first place - once it's gone to development, you can't get it back at all.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:18 PM   #7
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People are ALWAYS going to flock to the big-name parks - the grand canyon, yellowstone, etc. They're the parks with the big names, and the big attractions. I've never been, and I'm sure they're amazing - but with a little planning, I bet there are also a lot of amazing parks that don't draw the huge crowds. If you want to see something particular, sometimes you have to go to a particular park. If you just want to see something interesting, there are a lot of choices. (For example, I've been to Niagara Falls. It was pretty amazing - but it doesn't mean that I've suddenly lost interested in seeing any other smaller waterfall again. That two mile hike down the path somewhere in New Hampshire was just as exciting and fun.)
Very well said.

For me, an amazing, awesome, and fulfilling experience is simply being out in nature, away from crowd-scenes like that. Let the herd animals pay to wait in line to see something 'special'. Their money goes towards funding all the other lands they'll never step foot on for lack of structured activities, bottled water stations, or social safety nets.

As far as 'social media' goes, I don't think you could construct a better oxymoron if you tried. The more 'social' we get, the more lonely and narcissistic we become. Death by Apple. FTW.
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Old 08-18-2019, 07:06 AM   #8
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Very well said.

For me, an amazing, awesome, and fulfilling experience is simply being out in nature, away from crowd-scenes like that. Let the herd animals pay to wait in line to see something 'special'. Their money goes towards funding all the other lands they'll never step foot on for lack of structured activities, bottled water stations, or social safety nets.

As far as 'social media' goes, I don't think you could construct a better oxymoron if you tried. The more 'social' we get, the more lonely and narcissistic we become. Death by Apple. FTW.
VERY well said!
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:20 PM   #9
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So being fairly young I might be one of the people included in the ď bandwagon .Ē
Thereís probably a lot more van life and mobile housing now . I expected to be able to save for a few years and find a job either free lance labor or something digitally .

Now Iím beginning to think what if I build this bus out and me and thousands of others all expect the same thing .
To travel and use blm land sites for off grid , boo docking.
Then the gov. Puts restrictions in place.
Iím still taking the chance but this video got me thinking ....
https://youtu.be/jxea05CrnaU

I was expecting to visit national parks and travel around for awhile and I still hope in being able to do so.

Any thoughts yíall might have that relate?

Diggin' into the old stuff...


I guess you are young. When I grew up in the 1980's, there was so much better access to public lands, NFS lands, BML lands, and state-owned lands (where I lived, anyway). Drive into the woods, pick a spot, done. So many old jeep trails to explore, remnants of abandoned logging roads.


In the late 1990s, it started to change quick. As I see it, it stemmed from Newt Gingrich's "Contract With America" which de-funded the National Park System, and forced it to rely on user fees. Only the rich get to use the parks! (one of the most influential "conservative Republican" financial doners, I want to say a Koch brother, but that's not him - I forget who but I think he just died of old age, was quoted as saying the government shouldn't even build roads, they should all be private - his kind would charge you a user-fee to walk down the sidewalk in front of your house!) Old logging roads were closed to citizen access, and NP and NF campgrounds were expanded and fees got higher and higher - higher per day to stay in your RV/MH at some National Parks - something that should belong to the citizens - than to rent an apartment in some cities; and you're lucky to get a warm shower - often you don't. I used to go walking in the National Park every day that was near my house. Then they started charging $5 a day to park there. For WHAT? They said for security because cars were being broken into. BS. There was never ever any park ranger there on security patrol. It paid his salary to collect the fees! There was no services there whatsoever. The trail system there is built by volunteers and rogue mountain bikers plowing through the woods for fun.



Also at this time, the lumber industry was clear-cutting down the last of the great forests in America of the west coast. Many people were protesting that (a) it was happening at all, and (b) that the American People got no benefit or profit from the exploitation. My brother in Oregon told me how the "tree sitters" (perched high in 1000-year old old-growth trees to protect them from loggers) were "misted" with "rain" one bright sunny day, and looked up and one of those stealthy silent helicopters (I'm not a military guy, is that a Blackhawk?), painted all black, was above. Then they all got very very ill. It wasn't a government helicopter. It was a gov'ment helicopter, owned by the rich corporate elite that actually control policy in this country (as it is in most countries). YOU can't buy one of these choppers for any price, but THEY can cause they're "frat buddies" with the guys who make them and those who are elected into office.


So official policy was to "side" with the "environmentalists" who were protesting me going 4◊4ing in my pickup and others on their ATVs, & snow-mobilers, and close the public's access to public lands. Now you have to search and search for a spot on the South-East coast to pull up and camp in the woods from the back of your truck. I knew of more spots than I could count in the 1980s. Now I know of only one that's free. All the other spots on public land have been posted. It limits the ability of folks to "camp" in the way of "progress" of cutting down the woods. They also made it a serious felony with terrible legal consequences to protect the woods and interfere with loggers stealing the lumber from the people and the squirrels and the owls.



Now your younger generation is farther from nature than humans have ever been (digital life is to blame, also!). The corporate elite that pollute the earth have a long standing plan to wean the population off connecting with nature, because those that love nature have some of the loudest voices against pollution. So a corporate executive for an oil company quit in the early 2000s to become a board member or CEO or whatever of REI (which sells outdoor camping equipment) and they started slowly downgrading the line of stuff they sell, keeping only the most expensive stuff (they claim to be a co-op to save you money, but that's no longer quite stricktly true), while increasing the amount of synthetic-fiber woman's outdoor-fashion clothing that they sell. Then she (the oil-company exec who took over REI) was appointed by Obama to head the EPA, and we see why she "primed" herself at REI, as he claimed on the campaign trail he would not hire industry reps to oversee their old industries. He also said "not on my watch" regarding offshore oil drilling, then he and his EPA cleared the way once elected.



Sorry if this all seems political. No way I see to tell the story without pointing fingers at names. And the story is so much more complicated and deeper than this. Republicans, Democrats: they are both full of corrupt politicians complicit in destroying our earth for profit and keeping the power out of the public's hands. Just do some research on how many innocent children die each year due to air pollution. Who the F cares? I do. Not them.



But ultimately it comes down to this:
All crude oil sold on the global markets is sold in U.S. dollars. That is the number one reason the U.S. has political power in the world today. It is why we shun Cuba, Venesuela; it is why Russia "hates" us. No one wants to talk about this bottom-line fact.



I'm really impressed with the political stance and environmental awareness of the majority of those who are 15(go Greta!)-30 (maybe even 35) years old. I hope y'all finish the movement that the hippies started. There were few folks like me in my gen-X to carry the ball to you, but we tried...


The scariest scene to me of all the Star Wars movies was when the evil Palpatine introduced a planet as "one big city" with a smile of pride and happiness on his face. Balance my friends, balance!
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:57 PM   #10
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Well that was a good read and I loved it .
I’m at work and was definitely entertained . Yeah there’s a lot of good opinions and I just wanted to build this thread to kind of share thought on the political / environmental also legal aspect of it all.
I wish I could have known that era . I hope to find many good free spots and cheap fuel. And eventually going with bio diesel or veg Oil would be cool. Also finding ways to implement cooking with the wood burning stove or having hot water pass through lines or wrap around the exhuast in copper or stainless tubes to use as hot shower water when you reach a destination ....

I like hearing all those that have chimed in and haven’t responded at all I think but thanks for that I just find it interesting
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Old 12-09-2019, 05:00 PM   #11
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And eventually going with bio diesel or veg Oil would be cool. Also finding ways to implement cooking with the wood burning stove or having hot water pass through lines or wrap around the exhuast in copper or stainless tubes to use as hot shower water when you reach a destination ....
bio-diesel is great if you can find it - it needs to be highly refined for your modern diesel's fuel injectors. veg-oil won't work with these injectors, from what I understand.


Someone sells heat exchangers that can heat water in a tank using a small circulation pump, or right on the spot with the motor running. They use the hot engine coolant to heat clean water. If you haven't already pulled out your rear heaters or the driver's foot heater, they make good spots to tie the heat exchanger into. I'm keeping my rear heater. When it's freezing outside, the one heater in the rear of the bus will get it near sweaty inside...


I can see using something like a (larger?) tranny cooler inside a wood stove with a small circulation pump, if that's what you mean. Should work with a tank, and maybe on-demand also.
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Old 12-09-2019, 05:21 PM   #12
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To put it another way, the government says we, the people, are "loving the wild lands to death" with over-visitation and littering degrading the landscape the central issue, so they limit the spots the people can go, and charge them a fee to limit the number of visitors. That is official policy.
Yet corporate destruction of the environment goes not merely unchecked, but protected by the government that is supposed to work for the people.
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Old 12-09-2019, 05:37 PM   #13
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Yes, a very interesting diatribe. But this is not new and has been going on for a very long time. What's different now is the pressure of a much larger population, both nationally and globally. I was born right around the time the population of the US passed 150 million. The population of the world at the time [late 1949] was slightly over 2.5 billion.

Needless to say, population increases such as those that have occurred during my lifetime are unprecedented in recorded history, but accounts of lesser population pressures combining with economic pressures to wreak havoc and destruction are quite plentiful. For example, both the California Gold Rush of 1848 and the Klondike Rush of 1898 were devastating to the aboriginal inhabitants of those areas after thousands of economically desparate young men rushed there in an attempt at riches.

But I think things are much worse now than they were in the 1800s Perhaps I read too many Philip Dick or Harlan Ellison stories when I was younger, but I think I may have recently uncovered an unprecedented conspiracy to reduce the population suddenly.

I want to find a small chest freezer with a non-flammable refrigerant. I have been looking for a new one, but virtually all the new freezers I've been finding have R600A. That stuff is highly explosive, like having a bomb in your living space waiting for detonation.

The only freezers I've found that are currently being manufactured with R134A are commercial units sold by restaurant supply merchants, and the ones I have found are pretty expensive to start with and then arrive with an enormous shipping bill from the East Coast. So non-explosive freezers have been priced out of the reach of the general population here in the West.

From this point it's not far to envisioning a giant conspiracy to significantly reduce the population of the Western US by causing people's freezers to explode at night. The attackers will probably use top secret EMP weapons fired from black helicopters to burn whole neighborhoods.

But not me. I plan to keep moving, with non-flammable refrigerant.
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Old 12-09-2019, 06:09 PM   #14
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All thru out the 90s I did lots of camping in National Forest in the western US and watched most all of the spots I used to go to get blocked off by the NFS. They had a nation wide program to shut public access down to much of the National Forest land and it is still going to day. Many public forest users went to town meetings to discus it and protest it but the meetings were just dog and pony shows to make it look like the NFS was listening to public option.

Some spots by heavy populated areas did get some over use and abuse but the majority of the spots were far from cities and had light use. We have so much great public land in the US and have real access to very little of it these days. If you cannot park a vehicle anywhere you don't have real access.

The NFS is still shutting down access to a lot of areas I have seen perfectly good public forest roads shut down in the last couple of years. Sometimes they will leave a little parking lot to hike in from, the NFS says it makes the area so they can ďpatrolĒ it better.

Sad.
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Old 12-09-2019, 06:37 PM   #15
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I used to do a lot of camping in the northern end of Siskiyou National Forest, but because of changing personal and family dynamics I haven't really done any for the last 12 to 15 years.

Next year that will change and I will see how an area that I was very familiar with previously has changed during the time you're talking about. I have noticed changes just driving through the area so I am sure I will see more when I look closer.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:55 PM   #16
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To put it another way, the government says we, the people, are "loving the wild lands to death" with over-visitation and littering degrading the landscape the central issue, so they limit the spots the people can go, and charge them a fee to limit the number of visitors. That is official policy.
Yet corporate destruction of the environment goes not merely unchecked, but protected by the government that is supposed to work for the people.

You & I both know who the government really works for, & it isn't the people. The only candidates that stand a chance need big $$ backing, & you know where that comes from. We're given the illusion of choice, but our votes don't count for ****. At the moment, Arizona is being raped by our corporate sell-out leadership, touting a strong economy that only matters to the few, and which is paid for - in many ways - by the many. Not the least of those ways is the loss of our public lands, our freedom, & our heritage. Sadly AZ is far from alone. We live in a Corporatocracy. And the Corporatocracy doesn't give a damn about nature unless they can suck it dry for a profit.
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Old 12-10-2019, 04:18 AM   #17
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Steering clear of the politics and sticking to what I can do something about....

I wish the people that read/contribute to threads like this would also contribute to the threads where people advocate dumping (of ANY kind), burying their poo, and so forth.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time on BLM/NFS managed land, I don't blame them one bit for closing areas. I am ashamed to be a human when I see what we do to these areas. I'm certainly not talking about neat little fire rings, hiking trails and two-track roads. Campers - like you and me - leave a tremendous mess behind. Broken glass, bottles, cans, garbage of all sorts, stinky ground (I assume dumping something), and everything else. On top of that, many of us show up and make as much noise as possible. In my opinion, that noise pollution is nearly as bad as the garbage 'pollution'.

I wonder if the position of the managers would change if we changed and really "cared" for these lands??
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:29 AM   #18
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Gnome - one of the BIG THINGS that happened to Lands was the "everyone has a 4x4" because it got "popular" to go off-roading.. im 50, our family vacations as a kid were piling into our 'SUV'.. early on a 1971 Chevy Blazer.. and later a series of IH Scouts.. we headed west from ohio.. and wheeled the likes of all the passes around colorado springs.. and over into the sand dunes.. and into utah to the Moab area.. and often our travels took us to idaho, wyoming, nevada, Arizona, New mexico, california... dad built our vehicles with winch, heavy axles, tires, skid plates.. and while we didnt tent camp.. the only "Luxury" on those vehicles was the fact we had Air-Conditioning..



people respected the lands.. people didnt wheel to tear up lands.. everyone helped everyone.. it was importanr when ghost-towning to Look but dont touch, so the next family could see the marvels of the wilderness and the spectacles of mines and times past.. you didnt take souveniours .. everyone thought the same.. everyone kn ew to clean up their campsites and leave the land like or better than they found it.. it wasnt crowded.. there were enough people out that it was safe to travel.. we all carried CB's and many had HAM radios set to a certain frequency that were monitored.. if you broke down and put a call on the radio, there would be others stopping to see what could be done to get said vehicle back on the road.. I remember us going back out of the woods and 20 miles down to go get a couple tires for a Jeeper that got where he shouldnt on wet rocks.... they trusted us to take their rims with us.. we trusted he would pay for the tires when we arrived back... it just happened..



then the SUV-Craze of the mid-80s till now happened... everyone went and bought a 4x4 and trekked across the country with zero knowledge and little respect... everyone went west because they watched it on TV. and later the internet.... SUVs going to CanyonLands that wouldve been better off going to DisneyLand....



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Old 12-10-2019, 08:00 AM   #19
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I can see both sides. I have been living regularly in NF and BLM lands for some time now. I like to be there because I have rights and I know them. On the other hand I have dealt with a lot of harassment from the authorities. I have seen a lot of gates go up and places that used to be accessible get closed. At the same time I have seen a lot of trash. Personal camp trash to abandoned vehicles and household waste dumped off. Camp sites that more resembled a latrine than anywhere I would want to camp. I usually have to pick up a trash bag of garbage if I want to camp close to a city. Itís a problem. At the same time I have a right to use public land and shouldnít have that taken away from me for others actions. Unfortunately public land is becoming more and more unusable and I canít see that trend going the other direction.
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Old 12-10-2019, 08:48 AM   #20
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The "Rainbow family" are a GOOD reason to have regulations and enforcement. Those folks make a huge mess and contribute nothing.
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