Are My Batteries Toast?

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by PeteinSF

You never need to run the starter current through a disconnect switch.

All starters are disconnected via the starter relay/solenoid. You want to use the switch to disconnect everything else.

Some buses have the positive cable going to the starter terminal and then it gets branched off to everything else. They are common in that sense and need disconnecting to avoid parasitic draw.
There are variations of course to this but this is why one can't generalize, each bus has to be evaluated on its own.
That's why you want the best electrical and mechanical connections you can make, not willy nilly that leads to certain problems.
Of course the start relay supplies the start solenoid but its the other side of the starter that is always hot, not just when starting.


John



John

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Well mr apprentice, cable size and lugs are relevant to the electrical characteristics of the starter draw. That is undetermined in this case so the lugs must be rated at least for the cable's capacity. I don't know what he has and either do you so you can't just generalize connections as you seem to imply. Hole size in a proper lug is crucial so there is no movement at the battery post and so no conductors have to be trimmed from the cable to make it fit an undersized lug.
Happy now?
en you brought up cables and

John

I never said anything about lug to cable compatibility. this all started when you said the battery disconnect would not work on the bus cables. You're just plain wrong. When you started about the lugs and cable compatibility I had already mentioned changing to a lug for the cable and disconnect. Stop telling me I'm wrong and tell me what specifically I said that was incorrect, not a bunch of theory on what works or not.

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by o1marc

I never said anything about lug to cable compatibility. this all started when you said the battery disconnect would not work on the bus cables. You're just plain wrong. When you started about the lugs and cable compatibility I had already mentioned changing to a lug for the cable and disconnect. Stop telling me I'm wrong and tell me what specifically I said that was incorrect, not a bunch of theory on what works or not.

Just the poorest of all options marco. Put it in your bus and see if it'll start.
I will call you on anything you post that is shoddy , dangerous or whatever...


John

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Just the poorest of all options marco. Put it in your bus and see if it'll start.
I will call you on anything you post that is shoddy , dangerous or whatever...


John

Yap, Yap, Yap. Still can't answer the question can you? Please tell the others the data you use to says that won't work, PLEASE. Tell me anything negative that that unit would cause. We run double batteries of the same amperage in our racecourse, these cutoffs are common. There are better quality than other models out there, but they all do the same job.

[PeteinSF]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Some buses have the positive cable going to the starter terminal and then it gets branched off to everything else. They are common in that sense and need disconnecting to avoid parasitic draw.
There are variations of course to this but this is why one can't generalize, each bus has to be evaluated on its own.
That's why you want the best electrical and mechanical connections you can make, not willy nilly that leads to certain problems.
Of course the start relay supplies the start solenoid but its the other side of the starter that is always hot, not just when starting.

John



John

I stand by my comment. There is never a “need” to run a starter through a disconnect switch. (Marine applications maybe)

It the bus uses the hot leg of the starter solenoid as a junction point that should just be rerouted as it’s not helpful long term.

If you remove the starter load from the new switch the wire gauge becomes much less of an issue.

[TeacherJoe]

Here are a few pics, but first a question: The two older batteries date from 11/18 and are 950 CCA. The new one is 925 CCA. Is that CCA rating difference a possible source of a charging problem.

I don't know what all the cables do, but I do see one crappy looking positive lug. If there are any insights from these great. Otherwise, just enjoy pics.

Joe

[EastCoastCB]

They need to all be exactly the same cca, man.

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Yap, Yap, Yap. Still can't answer the question can you? Please tell the others the data you use to says that won't work, PLEASE. Tell me anything negative that that unit would cause. We run double batteries of the same amperage in our racecourse, these cutoffs are common. There are better quality than other models out there, but they all do the same job.

Me yap, who has 4500 plus posts? Oh yeah, mr know it all. The guy who knows more than the people that discovered and harnessed electricity. So, continue to impress on how much you know wiseguy!



Never did I say your idea wouldn't work. I said it is a poor idea, poor solution when dealing in bigger lugs sizes. Poor mechanically and electrically. Why? because your flimsy way of connecting leads to arcing simply,which in turn leads to more problems electrically.

Done with you on this. You wanna argue black is white, go someplace else.

Now does the OP have toasted batteries or not before you so rudely interrupted the conversation.


John

[TeacherJoe]

I have them charging. I now know all must match CCA.

Joe

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by PeteinSF

I stand by my comment. There is never a “need” to run a starter through a disconnect switch. (Marine applications maybe)

It the bus uses the hot leg of the starter solenoid as a junction point that should just be rerouted as it’s not helpful long term.

If you remove the starter load from the new switch the wire gauge becomes much less of an issue.

"There is never a “need” to run a starter through a disconnect switch"



I have to agree with you there but depending on how the bus is originally wired, sometimes to eliminate parasitic draw, people resort to this and install a disconnect on the starter cable. To each their own I guess.


"It the bus uses the hot leg of the starter solenoid as a junction point that should just be rerouted as it’s not helpful long term."


I think you misunderstood my point here. I said the main starter connection, not the starter solenoid connection, as that is only hot with the key in "ON." I'm talking the main heavy battery positive cable to the starter bolt itself. Not sure how many buses are mfg'd that way but many are. It was cheap and convenient but can be remedied easily enough.




"If you remove the starter load from the new switch the wire gauge becomes much less of an issue.[/QUOTE]"


Ok, we agree that the starter should never be switched period other than by the start solenoid.
If there was another junction point after the positive post of the battery, that would make 12v distribution so much simpler and there would be an optional place for a disconnect of the 12v system totally. That would deal with parasitic loads discharging the start batteries.


So, people have to get to know this part of their bus and figure what is the best solution.One size doesn't fit all kinda thing.




John

[BlackJohn]

Originally Posted by TeacherJoe

I have them charging. I now know all must match CCA.

Joe

Thanks Joe for the pics. Charging will help yes. Cable ends are in bad need of cleaning. Got a dremel tool with wire wheel attachments? That and the baking soda paste will be good.
Not only the cable ends but the jumpers from one battery to another, clean them up also. And then the battery posts themselves. Get rid of the dust etc too, grease, grime. These all rob power and likely are the loss in your case of starting power as compared to any other thing causing a parasitic draw.


I know its a pain to lug them to a shop for testing for load but even though they are relatively new, do so and then you have a benchmark of where their life is at. At least take the two that match.

Mismatched batteries will confuse a charger so, try starting with 2 batteries when you get things back together. If it all works out then you can likely add the third charged battery into the mix. Otherwise you will need to charge each individually which is more disconnecting and reconnecting work for you.

Batteries are not to be installed and forgotten, minimum 6 months for cleanliness, tight connections etc. Yours are maintenance free as far as electrolyte goes only. I buy only those with a cap for each cell so I can better see what goes on with each cell in each battery. Anal, yup!


John

[david.dgeorge07]

While it is true that the batteries should all match I can’t imagine that your problem is because of a difference of 25 cca in battery rating.

The two matched batteries should be easily able to start your bus if they are in decent condition.

My bus came to me with mismatched batteries (only two) and it cranks well (unless I let it sit too long without opening the main breakers), even in cold weather when the grid heater is running at startup.

I’ll replace them with matching ones at some point, but I see little reason to until I they start to underperform.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by david.dgeorge07

While it is true that the batteries should all match I can’t imagine that your problem is because of a difference of 25 cca in battery rating.

The two matched batteries should be easily able to start your bus if they are in decent condition.

My bus came to me with mismatched batteries (only two) and it cranks well (unless I let it sit too long without opening the main breakers), even in cold weather when the grid heater is running at startup.

I’ll replace them with matching ones at some point, but I see little reason to until I they start to underperform.

They need to be the same CCA. Batteries with different CCA ratings mean they can discharge more or less current, this also mean they recharge at different rates. Not good when mixed in a set with others with different ratings.

[david.dgeorge07]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

They need to be the same CCA. Batteries with different CCA ratings mean they can discharge more or less current, this also mean they recharge at different rates. Not good when mixed in a set with others with different ratings.

I don’t disagree.

[TeacherJoe]

I pulled the batteries. Here's what's going on:

Battery #1 - 950 CCA dated 11/18. Left on Husky charger at 2A setting overnight until it read 12.6v. It sat about 8 hours and read 12.1v.

Battery #2 - 950 CCA dated 11/18. Left on charger and I returned to see fault code F03 and 8v.

Battery #3 - 925 CCA new battery. On charger at present. After a short time, it increased to 12.1v.

Did #1 discharge too fast?
Is #2 toast?
If #3 is OK, I intend to get another and use 2.

Joe

[david.dgeorge07]

Originally Posted by TeacherJoe

I pulled the batteries. Here's what's going on:



Battery #1 - 950 CCA dated 11/18. Left on Husky charger at 2A setting overnight until it read 12.6v. It sat about 8 hours and read 12.1v.



Battery #2 - 950 CCA dated 11/18. Left on charger and I returned to see fault code F03 and 8v.



Battery #3 - 925 CCA new battery. On charger at present. After a short time, it increased to 12.1v.



Did #1 discharge too fast?

Is #2 toast?

If #3 is OK, I intend to get another and use 2.



Joe

At a 2 amp setting you won’t get a full charge overnight. Those batts probably have close to 100 amp/hour capacity and 10 hours x 2 amps is only 20 amp/hours.

To get a true full trickle charge at 2 amps on big batts like that you need 48 hours or so if they are dead to start with.

Sounds like batt #2 is a real dud and is certainly capable of causing your problem of parasitic drain. There may be other problems to deal with but a battery in your bank sitting at 8 volts could easily cause the entirety of the symptoms you have described.

You should see charge voltages at least up into the 13s if not low 14s. Usuals float charge is mid 13s.

Is your charger a 3 stage or just fixed?

[TeacherJoe]

I think it’s not a three stage charger. It’s an old Husky.

If that means it charges at three rates, then yes. 2/6/10

Joe

[memecosta]

I have the same problem. You have to turn the bus every day or every other day to keep up with the charge, After a lot of jump start I got a battery disconnect and that is wht people who have similar vehicles do.

[Doktari]

I think someone mentioned it but I’ll mention it again ; generally it’s not recommended to replace one Lead acid battery from a battery bank. It will likely be dragged down to the level of the older batteries. Apparently people are having better success replacing some Lithium batteries in a battery bank but I wouldn’t be surprised if the newer battery gets some degradation. The shift to Lithium is happening but it’s still very expensive. I’m not going to the one to experiment hopefully.
Im considering buying multiple smaller low battery disconnects. Then the loads will get switched off one at a time according to what voltage I select on the adjustment screw. Do big automatic low battery disconnects have terminals for a override switch? That would drain the batteries over time also but a small solar panel might keep up. Or better yet a big solar energy system to keep it all going. Then a small DC to DC Charger from the solar batteries to keep the starting batteries up. Argh, just when I thought it would be simple. As, unlike Lithium, Lead batteries don’t like to rest at low charge for long without degradation occurring. But there’s places for automatic low battery disconnects on pretty much any expensive battery bank. Lithium reaches its critical low point then drops off fast. But it’s very low.
As a starter is not meant to be drawing amps for more than a few seconds a heavy switch should hold up and not have time to get overly hot. As long as it close in rated amperage to the load. But it’s good generally to oversize and carefully consider placement. It sounds like modern electronics such as the engine computer are affected. Maybe a cheap cigarette lighter to cigarette lighter plug jumper cord would keep the computer going while batteries are being replaced?? The engine computer may not like being back fed like that however?? I don’t know. I’m looking at a 2004 Chevy bus so would like to know.

[Dirtdoctor]

One bad. Elk sucks the life out of the others. Replace and tight connections. I run 3 1100cca batteries cause starters are expensive.