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Old 02-12-2010, 08:37 PM   #1
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

Sorry in advance for not contributing an answer to your question. I just wanted to say that the whole hybrid electricity idea is f-ing incredible. Even cooler is that, if I understand history correctly, it was the Germans that started the idea rolling when they were designing ways in which to power there subs (u-boats back then). I really wish people would contribute the $ and effort to perfect such methods of producing power. Imagine the possibilities!... like you said, 30 m.p.g.(or better) for a 10+ ton vehicle. I know it's possible, too, but big oil won't be happy, and will try everything to prevent it (unless they're the only ones to profit from it). Good luck man, and when you get it figured out, I know you'll not be greedy, and will share the process with your fellow skoolies (wink,wink,nod)
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Old 02-13-2010, 02:08 AM   #2
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

Series hybrid vehicles are nothing new and have some real benefits over parallel, but also some significant draw backs. I'll post more tomorrow when my ears aren't ringing from a Trampled by Turtles concert. There are at least two senior design projects in my school program involving hybrids right now.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:40 AM   #3
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightybus
Lithium batterys are the key, because they don't have a memory.
lithium ion batteries have the disadvantage of realatively short life spans....and their life span begins when the battery is manufactured. It is possible to buy a new in box li ion battery that is near the end of it's life span. They do have good energy density for their weight....much better than led acid batteries.

battery "memory" is an urban legend.

Nimh batteries are my favorite. They are very similar to batteries used by edison for his electric vehicles around 1900. some "new" technologies aren't really all that new.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:05 AM   #4
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

isn't a hybrid a hybrid because it can be powered by both an electric motor and the internal combustion engine(ICE) at the same time?

I don't want to rain on your parade......but you can't power a bus at speed with a 15 hp engine! Not for any length of time at least. In my experience, it takes at least a 150hp diesel engine to power a bus over 55 mph. You cannot do the same amount of work with 1/10th of that hp available.

From an efficiency standpoint, i think physics will make it impossible to transform energy from an internal combustion engine that runs at a constant speed, into a generator, that charges batteries and powers the electric drive motor(s) and to have this setup be more efficient than the same internal combustion engine set up in it's traditional role directly driving the wheels through gears.


every time you transfer energy from one form to another you have a loss. Anytime you charge batteries you have a big loss. A gasoline engine is only about 30% efficient to begin with.

There is a reason that trains use this setup. An electric motor will deliver nearly 100% of it's torque regardless of rpm. If an ICE was used to power the wheels directly, the acceleration would not be smooth, and you would need shift gears dozens of times.

Ice breaker ships also use this setup. Not for it's efficiency, but because if the propeller hits a large piece of ice causing the prop/shaft to slow or stop all together for a split second and that prop shaft was coupled directly to the diesel engine damage to the engine would/may occurr. Having the prop shaft connected to a giant electric motor is good, because when the prop hits a piece of ice no damage is done to the electric motor when it's speed is drastically altered or nearly stopped momentarily.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:24 PM   #5
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

I like thinking outside of the box, but with the details you have provided it cannot work.

You are trying to get more energy out than you put into the equation.

lets do some math.....

150 hp = 111.85 kw according to http://www.onlineconversion.com/power.htm

take this Honda generator as an example:



it is rated for 5 kw and uses 6.6 gallons of fuel over 8.3 hrs. @ rated load which =0.79 gallons/hr

5kwh = 0.79 gallons of gasoline

111.85 kwh = 17.63 gallons

Even if we stopped at this point, and did not include any losses from charging batteries, and the heat generated by powering the electric drive motors, your fuel consumption would be 17.63 gallons to travel 55 miles which equals:

3.11 mpg.


If you continued and included the rest of the electric system you would probably cut your 3.11 mpg nearly half due to the losses involved in battery charging/discharging and heat loss in the electric motors. Even if you use a more efficient generator/engine you would still would not be able to improve the efficiency by the 10x or 20x required to get 31 miles per gallon.
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Old 02-22-2010, 11:18 PM   #6
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

(Redbear takes short break from Olympics)

Riktor is on the right track, though 30 mpg may not be in reach. An internal combustion engine has to be sized for the maximum instantaneous horsepower needed for acceleration or hill climbing. The size choices range usually from efficient but slow to powerful but thirsty. Is anyone else old enough to remember the original 36 hp VW beetles of the '50's? Interstate driving was foot to the floor at all times. They went past you at 78 mph downhill, and you passed them when they went 47 mph up the next hill.

First step in efficiency is settling on the vehicle's aerodynamics and weight, which determine the power demands. Then the on-board generator is 'right-sized' to provide all power for level highway cruise plus battery charging plus offsetting efficiency losses. The battery bank is used for acceleration and climbing short hills that require more power than the on-board engine can provide. The concept is that by downsizing the engine below maximum demand, storing some excess power during average cruise, and running the power plant at its maximum efficiency, some savings will be realized.

The whole idea is to even out the peaks and valleys of the power demand, averaging the demand toward a constant draw.

Some RV inverter-chargers have a similar feature for providing AC power inside the rigs. If you tell it in programming that you have a 20 or 30 amp shoreline, and it will reduce charging to a stop as the load approaches the 20 or 30 amps, and will add some power from the inverter if the load reaches 35 or 40 amps. The draw on the shoreline is constant, and never more than its capacity.

The electrical grid, at least on the right coast, also averages power to its loads this way, using "pumped storage." Instead of building more power plants to handle the peak demand, you build a pair of reservoirs holding 4 to 5 billion gallons, one on top of a mountain, and one on the bottom. The actual power plants run at a more or less constant output. When grid demand is low, you convert the excess electricity to mechanical energy by pumping water up the mountain. When demand exceeds supply, you stop the pumps, open valves, and run water back down through turbines. This puts the "stored electricity" back into the grid.

It is a lot easier to just put an over-sized engine in and throw more fuel at it than to "right-size" an engine to match the average power to be demanded. There is extra cost in providing any other means of storing power for peak demand. Extra cost equals less profit per unit plus lost market share.

An interesting quote I heard:
A pessimist says the glass is half empty.
An optimist says the glass is half full.
An engineer says we have twice as much glass than is necessary to efficiently support the liquid.

p.s. Battery memory is not urban legend, but is only a problem with nickel-cadmium cells. That's why nickel-metal hydrides are replacing them. And Lithium Ion cells are reported to get about 300 full charge cycles, plus they require intelligent charging. This compares to about 1000 cycles for NiMh, which can use cruder forms of current-limited or temperature-limited charging as well. But Lithium Ions are so much superior in size and weight per unit of power that it is worth it where those concerns factor in. And we all know how heavy the various lead-acid types are.
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:33 PM   #7
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

Damn nice work. Air bearings- that's intriguing. That, combined with magnet power plays in to a dream/idea of mine leading to something of an attempt at perpetual motion. Fascinating. Keep up the work. H.E. for all skoolies!
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:24 AM   #8
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

2010 hybred busses are available from International/Navistar, I haven't looked into the technical side of the hardware but it fits into the inter city route application that makes sense for electric vehicles with auxillary power override.
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Old 02-25-2010, 05:44 PM   #9
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

Whatever John... you can laugh and mock, and all of that, but I simply stated what it was- a dream, an idea. If people like yourself continue to mock and throw ashes on people's ideas, then I hope you don't expect to reap any benefits from the ones that become successful. Just an assumption on my part, but I imagine you to be pretty cozy there in your Ca. dwelling , sucking up a lot of the modern conveniences that doubtful you had to break much of a sweat to produce/receive. To be honest, remarks like the one you just made make me laugh at the absurdity of my fellow humans (myself included). I mean, I can tell by your words elsewhere that you're halfway intelligent, but then you go and try and knock me for my science fiction-esque visions. While we're at it, tell me- what part of aiming for such a process as attempting to get close to perpetual motion, ie. frictionless, is too "out there" for your brain to comprehend. I simply was marveling at the air bearings and their application, and embellishing it w/ my own input. Didn't your mommy tell you about not having anything nice to say...
or are you Remus?
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:26 PM   #10
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Re: Hybrid Theory: Need electrician help

http://www.newwayairbearings.com/

I thought I'd put this out there for anyone interested, because the whole concept is just plain cool. Also I like their opening statement about their product- something along the lines of achieving what many have dared, despite the limits put on thinking "outside the norm" by tradition and such, you know- stick to the way it's always been done, because it works, and it's the way we've always done it. Rubbish!
I'll bet John can explain all of the mysteries of the world, while knocking blokes like me, all in one sweep of his wrist.
Tell me John- how were the pyramids made? Or are they just nonsense? Figments of my deranged and out/not of this world imagination? Cheers!
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