I really need some help with the wiring here!!!

[Here to learn]

Hello All , I also got overeager and cut too many wires and the bus ceased to start. I did my best to follow the instructions posted here http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f10/ho...ock-10956.html to try to fix my issue and the few youtube videos but didn't have a whole lot of luck.

One issue i was having after reconnecting stuff was the buzzer sounding when the key turned to on. My setup for the buzzer had three pink wires on one terminal, #s 5, 14 and 57 and three black wires on the other, coming from the ignition, going to the radio power and going to a solenoid separating the two fuse blocks.

The three pink wires, #14 went to my emergency windows, #57 went to the escape hatches and #5 went to the rear emergency door for one side of the switch. (The other side of the switch is my #58 pink that goes to my interlock solenoid. )

I have no wiring schematic so while i am positive i am accurate in my statements and actions, i may be wrong. Take it with a grain of salt or see what the results are when we are done.

My first step was getting the buzzer to be quiet. I removed two of the pink wires to narrow down the potential issue wires (#14 and #57) and continued with just #5 going to the rear door. I turned the key to the "on" position and was met with silence. I love that sound. So even though i tried to fix my cutting the wires by reattaching them, it didn't keep the buzzer from sounding. Note: I never cut #5, just #14 and #57. Lesson: Dont cut wires you are not 100% positive of their purpose and how cutting them will effect you.

For those with ocd that like having a clean bus and hate having wires not going to anything, trace every wire out first. For instance if you want to remove the 12v Dome lights, trace the wire through the multiple wire connections and end up at the "Dome light" switch by the steering wheel. Remove the wire from the back of the switch and cut the wire systematically out of your bus. Like the carpenters adage "Measure twice, Cut once" (meaning double check your work), dont cut wires out of your bus if you are not 100% positive of their purpose. (lesson i learned the hard way)

My next issue was my #58 wire going to the rear door. I traced it to the front wire box, to the center of a solenoid (i believe this is separating the ignition start to the starter but haven't taken the time to trace them out as they disappear under my dash. ) I used a test light to determine if either power or ground was making it to the solenoid.

With the key off, there was no voltage on any wire.
With the key to the on or accessory position, there was no voltage on any wire.

With the key turned to start, there was power on the left and on the #58 center wire. ( same with with #58 wire disconnected, so the left side wire was powering the center post and not making it through to the right side.) I went to the switch at the rear of the bus and realized that i did not effectively ground the switch, i just removed the panel to get at the insulation and left the wires and switch connected to the panel sitting on the floor. (Not an effective ground anymore as it is no longer connected to the frame of the bus) I removed the switch entirely from the panel and attached the ground to the frame of the bus. Upon retesting the wire at the solenoid, the #58 wire is ground constantly and when the key is turned to the start position, power goes to the other side of the solenoid.

The bus still does not start but upon releasing my key from the start position, my starter clicked. It hasn't done that before so power is making it to the starter now, just not enough to do anything with. I did trickle charge both batteries before starting all this work but the batteries are 9 years old and most likely are just not up to the task. I purchased two 900cca batteries from walmart yesterday and will be installing and retesting today. I will update with any progress.

Note: the autozone H8 was roughly 200, the advance auto parts was 189 with $50 off for black friday and walmart was 120. All have the same warranties, three year free replacement and the walmart battery actually had the highest cold cranking amps.

Have a good day!

[BlackJohn]

Good luck with your problem. Just wondering if you had a toothache would you pull your own tooth? People messing with this system without a clue have a difficult and expensive fix if a pro has to do the repair. This is the main problem owners here make for themselves. I ask "WHY!"?
The buzzers etc hurt nothing, draw little load, leave things be.

John

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by BlackJohn

Good luck with your problem. Just wondering if you had a toothache would you pull your own tooth? People messing with this system without a clue have a difficult and expensive fix if a pro has to do the repair. This is the main problem owners here make for themselves. I ask "WHY!"?
The buzzers etc hurt nothing, draw little load, leave things be.

John

I think they takle them out as they are removing the doors / windows, hatches in which they are attached?

since both of my busses are stock completely on the infrastructure.. i left mine as i figured, like you, they dont hurt anything.. in fact they help me because ive accidentilly left a door ajar and its nice to have the buzzer go off when I go to take off..
-Christopher

[Here to learn]

Hello again all, and thanks for the replies. You are right Christopher, I am planning on extremely modifying the bus which is planned to include a two foot roof raise, replacing the front door with a navigator chair and installing a new door further down the bus and removing the hatches and replacing them with skylights. One of my main reasons for posting finally is that the thread i am posting to was started in 9/2016 and the bus is still not fixed and is in much the same boat as I. (Sorry, i like these little guys. I have a dumb phone and dont get to play with them otherwise ) I have also noticed that there is no lack of new people questioning on how to fix their own no start issue after removing their wires.

To answer your WHY??, John, The whole point of the Skoolie culture that i have seen so far is taking something that is admittedly out of the norm but at the same time semi affordable and making something worthwhile out of it with your own two hands. I am pretty confident that as you have a bus you may have done things in your bus build that you may not have been trained for. Or, maybe you have, i dont know you from adam but the majority of people that i have seen do this out of necessity. I cant speak for anyone other than myself but I do have quite a bit of applicable knowledge or i would not have attempted to do this at all. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, truthfully i would have studied quite a bit more before diving into the deep end but my circumstances in life provided the opportunity now, so now it is. I do thank you for your well wishes and would greatly appreciate any help you would be willing to share as I sort through my admittedly self imposed situation.

I started my time at the bus today with the hope that new batteries had been the issue. Unfortunately that turned out to be quite wrong. I installed the new batteries and still nothing but the smallest of clicks when i released the key from the start position.

I went through all the grounds in the fuse box testing and tightening and then went to put the battery cables on to see if that worked and as soon as the battery cable touched the positive side, it started sparking, the starter started cranking and the wire started fusing to the battery terminal. I immediately removed the wire, removed the wire from the starter and tried again. Many times throughout the rest of the day i put on and took off the battery cables and it never did the sparking and cranking again. There has to be something shorting out somewhere, I have a feeling i haven't gotten down that far through the mess of wires yet.

So, from there I decided that as i didn't know what all the wiring in the starting system was or where it came from or went to, i would attack that problem next. The biggest issue was removing all the wire wrap, zip ties, and miles of electrical tape to get down to the bundles of wire to even begin to trace anything. I started at the wires in my battery box as there is one wire that has a poorly crimped aftermarket eye terminal attached to the end and running to one of the bolts on the positive side terminal. I traced that back to a sensor on the housing of the starter. Nothing wrong there. I then moved to the power from ignition wire on the solenoid (17C Pink) and determined that i was not getting power on it so i began to trace it. It went up to a relay mounted under the hood near the windshield labled start relay or something along those lines. I'll add pictures when i post next.

The relay had four wires on it, (17B Pink, which we determined to have 12v constant on it, a white wire for ground, 17C Pink, the wire we traced up from the starter and then a smaller 17F pink with nothing running through it. (neither power nor ground.))

17B, 17C and the white were pretty self explanatory so we (My brother was helping now) traced the small 17F pink through a ton more electrical tape, wire wrap and zip ties to follow it up to the connector going through the firewall at the upper drivers side front under the windshield. From there it made its way down into a small relay on a row of relays to the left of the drivers left foot. There are four wires coming out or going into this relay and they are the #17f small pink which we are tracing, #17 Small pink , and two purple wires.

As the 17F terminates there, we continue to follow 17 small pink through a mess of wires, a connector, a cable splice into a magenta wire for a foot, another connector and a new wire, #58 Pink Fat that ran to the right side of my interlock solenoid. Coming out the other side was a blank Pink Fat wire that snaked back up and around and Into a connector, a magenta wire for a foot another connector and then finally into a small #17c small Pink wire.

So to attempt to stop and simplify for a second, the 17f pink that came from the relay under the hood is the one side of my interlock and the 17c that it ended up as is the other side of my interlock. One long snake so far if you want to look at it that way.

To continue i am now at a small #17c Pink after the interlock solenoid and it runs through yet another maze of wire ties, tape and crap and ended up at the ignition switch as the wire that gets power when the key is turned to start.

We power probed the power signal back to the one side of the interlock and then out through the other side to the relay. We have solid 12v power up to the relay and nothing after. Here is one of our issues. This is the relay with two pinks and two purples at the left of the drivers left foot.

I tried swapping relays to determine if the relay was bad and that didn't make any difference. After quite a bit of head scratching and muttering, we made a jump cable with some wire and blade terminals, removed the relay and jumped the two pink wires. We ran a test light to the solenoid wire and it got power with the key in the start position. We hooked everything up to one of the batteries and the starter and turned the key.

It cranked. , I was pretty pleased until it didn't turn over and the temporary setting the wire on the battery terminal and not hooking up both batteries melted the terminal on the wire running to the single battery. We put another terminal on and ran things the proper way , tight and right and tried again. Still cranked, still not turning over.

My next step unless someone knows what this is, is to trace out the purple wires as the relay is still jumped and that is not a permanent solution. Hopefully knowing what the two purple wires are will be enlightening and maybe even find out what the heck is going on here.

Note: As the interlock wires ran right beside eachother and we proved that power passes through them, we just took out the interlock and buzzer and connected the wire to eachother instead. Cleaner fuse box, no interlock, still transferring power through the wire.

Another note, whatever is causing this bus to not start is now not related to my cutting wires in the interlock at all as there is no more interlock in my bus and it still is not starting. Although maybe there is another interlock on the front door somehow as i haven't traced those wires out yet. I am also still bothered by the event with the sparking and cranking without the key on that didn't happen again. There has to be a short somewhere...

Progress made, good day, still not working but one step closer.

[Here to learn]

Good Lord, thats a lot of writing. Read it if you will.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Here to learn

Good Lord, thats a lot of writing. Read it if you will.

Post some pics. It may help talk you through this.

Just to clarify: Engine does turn over with key (tries to start), but won't stay running? Correct?

When was the last time the bus ran?

[cadillackid]

most relays are standard, they "should" have little numbers stamped on them which will essentially tell you what each wire is doing...

for instance on a standard 4 pin relay, pimns 85 and 86 are your coil.. meaning if you supply 12 volts across these 2 pins the relay will engage.. one pin will likely be connected +12 all the time.. and the other may get grounded by a switch... ie the door interlock switch when the door is closed.. this would turn 'ON' that relay..

pins 87 and 30 would be the item you are trying to turn on or off.. in this case the relay when on is going to make a circuit that will allow the starter to engage.. if you took these 2 pins off and connected the wires together then you have Bypassed this relay.. this relay will no longer affect this circuit..


now onto why the engine wont start.. since you can trip the key and get the starter to spin, we now need to find out if your computer comes alive.. im assuming since this is a 1999 that you have a DT-466E and not a mechanical DT466? (you have a computer hanging off the side of the engine under the hood?)..

if so, then first thing is to check the fuses for the ECM which are in the dashboard mounted fuse panel.. when you turn your key from off to on (not crank), you should see your WARN-ENGINE light come on for a few seconds then go off.. if you never see it, then theres a decent chance the computer isnt getting power... if it stays on then the computer has detected a fault.


in general chassis items are in the dash-mounted fuse panel... engine computer, trans, headlights, tail lights, etc..

and in the driver switchboard are little silver circuit breaker modules.. they are usually mounted on a bar or 2, those circuit breakers handle things like heater fans, air-conditioner, ceiling lights, and the like..

-Christopher

[Here to learn]

Goodmorning all and thanks for the reply guys,

To Rusty, Yes i can get the bus to a crank condition but only by jumping the relay inside the bus on the strip of relays under the dash to the left of the drivers left foot. It never actually turns over, so it may not be getting fuel, it just kicks over the starter.

To Christopher, i hope that the relays are not dedicated to individual circuits as i did swap them a few times with the relays to either side. The relays that i did swap all had the same part number and having worked in auto parts for many years, i was and am confident that they are the same. I'll check tomorrow during my bus time if there is a designation other than the part numbers and try to get them back to their original positions.
Note: these are 5 pin relays and are using 4 pins.

I am hesitant to permanently bypass the relay as i dont yet know what the two purple wires do and am concerned that these are computer cables. Hopefully these two purple wires end up just going to a switch that got shorted and is not supplying the 12v its looking for to activate the relay.

What you explained in paragraph 3 is essentially what i did bypassing the starter relay but again i dont want to bypass it for good until i am sure those two purple dont come from the computer... which answers paragraph 4, yes it is a dt466E, with a computer on the drivers side of the engine. The tests to determine if the computer comes alive are all new to me and i will have to check tomorrow during bus time. I'll check the WARN-ENGINE light and try to determine what fuses control the ecm.

I am glad to hear that the circuit breaker bars in the drivers switchboard usually handle non-essential things. My wire tracing so far has confirmed this but i have found a few wires with similar plugs on the end (all the wires going to the circuit breaker bars have the same terminal ends or plugs / whatever you call the wire connectors) that were disconnected and dont lead to anything. I assume that something was either removed or the wire is like so many others and is just there by default and my bus does not support their function.

So, i will check on the ecm power status monday and the warn light and the relays.

Thanks so much for the willingness to help, it is greatly appreciated.

Clint

[cadillackid]

relays are definitely not "coded" in any way so swapping them around doesnt hurt. you can help to determine what those purple wires do by noting which pins on the relay they are connected.. (note the pin numbers).. the numbers are usually stamped in the plastic and a PITA to read.. a 5 pin relay has one extra function over a 4 pin.. and that is a pin 87a which is Normally closed.. meaning that the circuit is connected until the relay coil is powered up. its possible they are using this function for the starter interlock..

we can surmise and deduce what circuit is what a little better by noting which wire is connected to which pin of the relay.

bypassing the starter relay *MAY* make the computer fail to start the engine. I dont have my ECM schematic in front of me to see if the computer requires starter feed to start or not.. I know my 444E does not.. (I can cycle the key while driving and the engine will fire up as long as it is still spinning.)

-Christopher

[Here to learn]

sorry rusty, re reading to make sure i covered everything, the bus last ran one week ago when i drove it an hour from new jersey to bensalem area of northeast philadelphia. I parked it in one spot for a few days cleared a spot behind the shed and then moved it to avoid bothering neighbors. I started with removing the seats, rubber, plywood, then the ceiling and the insulation and the wall panels and that insulation. Then started on the rust conversion on the floor. and ended up at wiring as it was just getting in the way of everything. After reading some more i came across another guy with an interlock issue and figured i had better check to make sure my bus started and behold, it didn't.

I figured (correctly as we later determined it to be a ground issue) that i disabled the interlock and began there. at this point, 11/26/2017, i have owned this bus for two weeks today. now, the interlock is removed, the buzzer is gone, three boxes of wires going to nothing or wires starting mid bus and never making it through certain connectors, like it was never ran from the factory, just a rats nest of a mess. I tried to only remove wires i could be positive did nothing or ran 12v lighting, etc. now that i have removed the interlock and it does not start i am really questioning what the heck happened in a week to render the bus inoperable.

To be continued monday the 27th and i'll try to update in the evening. If anyone has any other suggestions of what to check on monday, feel free to post up a message. Till then, God bless and thank you.

Clint

[BlackJohn]

Learn how to use and read a multimeter before cutting anything.

Take before and after pics of the work you attempt.

Write down what is what..wire z goes here, wire y goes here etc.

Disconnect the negative cable from the battery bank. When fuses blow they
are seldom seen or heard unless you really create a dead short. That you will notice if it doesn't fry or blind you first.

Most of us have no electrical schematics or line diagrams. You should know the circuit basics before any work is attempted. Throw in a relay here and there and people get really lost because they do NOT understand relay principles, when energized or not energized.
Most devices in a safety in series no matter what type of device is used at a window, door or escape hatch. That means one source of power generally which if the circuit is complete will allow starter operation.
This whole circuit is best tested and proven with an ohmeter, no power available whatsover.

Use this method and your problem issues will be minimal.

For Clint,

The starter relay you mentioned plugs into a block behind it. Other relays sit there also. Have a look at that particular block as to its cleanliness where the relay plugs into it. They have a habit of turning green inside, a huge problem. Clean or replace those blocks and clean the relay prongs as well. Now try the startup procedure.


John

[Twigg]

... and a camera is your friend.

[Here to learn]

https://www.instagram.com/wandathebus/?hl=en most of my photos are here

[Here to learn]

heading to the bus, will update later

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Here to learn

heading to the bus, will update later

Best of luck to you!
I know how it feels to be stumped by something electrical.

[Here to learn]

Just some photos and a video for now, i will write up an update after dinner. Thank you EastCoastCB

[Here to learn]

I uploaded a movie to my instagram showing the condition after plugging in the batteries. https://www.instagram.com/wandathebus/

[Here to learn]

Finally got some good news, i got an email from international Navistar with a owners manual / wiring diagram for buses build after 1997. Hope it helps someone else too.

P.S. I haven't had time to go through it, so it may not be what i need. We shall see.

[Here to learn]

Well, lets see what i remember.

The warn-engine light does not light at all even after the key was put into the ignition and after the key was turn to acc. I assume that means the computer is not receiving power. I swapped the fuses in the fuse panel between the start and acc as they were both 10A, tried to start and then swapped between ign and stop as they were both 15a, neither swap made a hill of beans so i guess that would only show that the fuse is not the issue. We knew the wiring was already an issue so i guess that confirms it. What fuse would be for ECM power?

I checked out the relay that was not working. I looked at all of the relays, they are all the same part numbers and all 5 pin. The two pink wires are on 85 and 87 and the two purple are on 30 and 86. Not sure what that means but maybe you guys do. I posted a photo of the circuitry of the relay.

The rest of my trip was tracing wires, removing more erroneous wires and trying to locate and remove any potential shorts. The wiring in this bus is a little wackadoo, there are a few places where someone just exposed the copper and wrapped another wire around it, leaving the bare wire exposed. I expect something like that is the issue with the starting.

[cadillackid]

2 trhings stand out.. the voltage gauge laying down dead.. when you turn the key on does the WARN LIGHT come on then go off?

if not then theres a chance the ECM is never being powered up.. the gauges communicate on a J1708 link so id expect to see the voltage up a couple from the bottom if that link is established.. ..

water-in fuel is possibly real.. there is often a sensor on the bottom of what looks like an auxiliary fuel filter under the hood.. it is usually on a frame rail.. if water fills the bottom of the bowl on said device it trips the water-in-fuel light... its POSSIBLE that the engine start is inhibitied when that condition is present.. most times the water separator has a drain at the bottom and you drain off a couple ounces of water which clears the light..

-Christopher