Late Model EPA Issues

[WIbluebird]

Can't wait to see what the used school bus market looks like in 15 years when all the pre-EPA stuff is long gone.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by WIbluebird

Can't wait to see what the used school bus market looks like in 15 years when all the pre-EPA stuff is long gone.

It'll be more of a scrap market than a resell/re-use market.

[brokedown]

I've said it before, we're in the golden age for building skoolies. So many districts have an age limit of 20 years or less, the supply is going to evaporate. There's already a lot of second and third owner buses on the market. Hopefully before the pre-2004 buses run out we've worked out how to maintain those newer motors in a cost effective manner!

[bus-bro]

Maybe I better change that 3208 boat anchor thing out. Straight up diesel V-8 is starting to sound really good.

[Gnoman]

Originally Posted by bus-bro

Maybe I better change that 3208 boat anchor thing out. Straight up diesel V-8 is starting to sound really good.

I've heard a lot that V-8s are overrated. That you get more bang for the buck on increasing compression volume on a V6. Arent most Semi's V-6s with a 24 valve setup?

[brokedown]

Straight 6 is the common layout.

[PNW_Steve]

I suspect that we will see some out there buying emissions equipped buses and deleting the problem pieces.

The fact that it is against the law may be not deter some.

[farok]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I suspect that we will see some out there buying emissions equipped buses and deleting the problem pieces.

The fact that it is against the law may be not deter some.

Not that I plan on doing this - I already have my bus and I prefer a gasser anyway - but how is the law written? If used for personal use, does the emission standard apply? I remember the recent thread about the CA regulations changes that mandate new motors not applying to RVs. Or, does it only matter that the vehicle remains as-built?

I suspect as noted elsewhere that gas will have a bit more pull than diesel if things don't get simpler or cheaper (which I doubt will happen).

Chris

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by farok

Not that I plan on doing this - I already have my bus and I prefer a gasser anyway - but how is the law written? If used for personal use, does the emission standard apply? I remember the recent thread about the CA regulations changes that mandate new motors not applying to RVs. Or, does it only matter that the vehicle remains as-built?

I suspect as noted elsewhere that gas will have a bit more pull than diesel if things don't get simpler or cheaper (which I doubt will happen).

Chris

The regulations apply to any vehicle driven on public roads in the US.

[peteg59]

Someone needs to notify our POTUS of the shenanigans over at EPA.
He seems good at undoing unnecessary BS laws and regs, so why not lighten up the diesel mandates???

[Sehnsucht]

Um, that's what he's doing and half the states are suing him for it.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

You want to buy a newer bus? Go for it. But most people on here $hit their pants when they have to spend 1000 bucks on tires, I can only imagine what they'll do when they need to spend more then double that to get back on the road. Especially when you consider the average purchase price of a few grand for a bus.

I'll stick with the old models that can be worked on with hand tools and a test light.

I had a wheel bearing fail on my 30 year old travel trailer a couple of weeks ago. Tow truck, parts, labor and a motel to stay in while they worked on it.

Total cost $2500.

That was more than what I paid for the trailer. I considered abandoning it on the side of the highway.

[rensch26]

The worst thing you can do with a modern diesel engine is just let it sit and idle. Make the engine work, keep the exhaust hot and it will regen less frequently.

[Gnoman]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

Um, that's what he's doing and half the states are suing him for it.

I believe theres only 12 states that adopted CA EPA rules. Last I checked there were a few more than 24 states. He should keep his fingers out of state's rights IMO.

[Sehnsucht]

Originally Posted by rensch26

The worst thing you can do with a modern diesel engine is just let it sit and idle. Make the engine work, keep the exhaust hot and it will regen less frequently.

This is true. The Diesel Exhaust Filtration systems work by heating up the exhaust gases to burn off much of the particulate matter being trapped but at idle it isn't getting hot enough so the filters just trap particles until they clog up. Semis that idle long will end up running a regen cycle in which it revs up the engine and forces the DEF to burn but its loud and less effective this way.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by SolomonEagle

Preach it brother! There is a reason that the older mechanical diesel skoolies are getting harder to find. Im pretty sure it has less to do with milage and age, and more to do with the fact that no one wants to get rid of them because they just keep going.¢2

Truth.

I am in the same boat with my pickup. A 2004 Dodge 3500 with the Cummins 5.9 and 6 speed transmission.

It may be the last pickup I ever buy. I have looked at new trucks and have no interest in a diesel with all the emissions crap.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

They're up to their ears in VT365's and Maxxforce. Its well known these are ridiculously problematic and its due to the emissions stuff.
Back in the days of mechanical DT's I don't recall them having quality control and engineering issues that put customers out of business with repairs and failures. The class action lawsuits came about because Navistar refused to remedy the situation with their emissions engines.
Nowadays if you buy a new IC and want a diesel you get a Cummins under the hood. The navistar shop is now also a Cummins shop.

Up to their ears in VT365s and maxxforces.. well lets see any VT they see is AT LEAST 12 years old... and most taking a 12 year old truck with lots of miles to a dealer are often somewhat clueless or have always had it repaired ..



Maxxforce 7s and some DT's.. yeah agreed they have issues.. the Maxxforce 7 is definitely a legit bad engine.. you can do some things ot help it out and in later years they got better with the pistons and valves. but that is one to stay away from..


I'll drive a VT365 in a shorty all over the country if given the chance..



are newer engines expensive to maintain? sure they are if you have to take them to the shop.. but I got news for everyone.. just like finding mechanical engines is near impssoble.. soon finding pre- EGR and pre-emission busses wont happen.. so educate yourself and rather than just swear off anything newer than 30 years.. learn it.. treat it right... and drive it forever...


there are a LOT of emission engines out there.. there are a lot of newer busses trucks and vans on. the road driving.. many many more than are sitting in the garage at the Navistar dealer..



are some better than others? sure they are... and some years are better than others too... as most anyone wit ha 400,000 mile ford 6.0 (aka VT365) will tell you.. later years got better... later years of the cummins 6.7 got better.. and yes my friends even later years of the ill-fated 6.4 (maxxforce 7) got well..somewhat better.. at leats they werent breaking pistons..



to justr blankety out and say all emission busses are bad is not something that stands for real.. is it "better" to find non emission units for your project? yeah in many cases it is.. esp while a supply of rust-free non emissions busses exist.. and they will for a few years yet.. but now is the time to learn and teach about the possible models that are beginning to show up for sale..


if you know how to use a computer and are pretty good at it. the cummins, CAT, international , allison, software can be had...


-Christopher


P.S.

I remember when i first started this forum in 09. that everyone completely hated on the T-444E and the DT-466E.. (those rogue injector issues..).. the cummins 5.9 24V.. OMG the dowel pin and 53 block...



only buy 6BTs.. only buy mechanical.. the E's are rubbish..



and how many people here are running 24V, 444E, and 466E all over the country with much success???? yeah lots are... because people learned how to take care of them and the do's and dont;s..

[brokedown]

I'm not scared of 1st gen electronic engines like the T444E or ISB. I haven't personally owned a 466E or 3126 but the issues I've seen with them are generally mechanical ones not electronic ones. With that said, my 6BT is a joy to own because it's so simple, my bus' wiring schematic including engine fits on a single page with lots of empty spaces. My T444E ran GREAT and the only trouble I really had with it was my glow plug solenoid, but every wire was the same color and the wiring diagram was a nightmare.

And now I bought an ISB which is somewhere between those levels of complexity. The emissions stuff scares me a bit but I'd like to think that I could familiarize myself with it to keep it from becoming a problem. But that's me, and I'm pretty YOLO about pulling things apart, probably much more so than a typical new member.

[Tmy8ster]

Lots of good information here, thanks for the contributions thus far. With that said, I think I know the answer to my question but will ask anyways...

I jumped the gun a little bit buying a bus. I wanted 7 window, tall (interior head space) bus in great condition. I found it and pulled the trigger on a 2009 CE 7.6L DT-466 Maaxforce bus. I was aware of the issues with those engines but it seemed from what I read it was 2012 engines forward.

I bought the bus and had to perform the Regen process twice driving it home 600 miles. I need to unbolt it and have it cleaned properly. My question here is, I REALLY like the bus, it’s perfect for me! But I also don’t want to put 9 months of work in making a Skoolie only to be on the side of the road with my wallet open.

Hard question to answer but are the 2009 Maaxforce engines ok? Or should I run now?

[brokedown]

If the EGR ran two cycles while driving at presumably highway speeds, I'd pull that sumbitch out asap and clean it. I'll let others give you advice more specific to your engine though!