Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-12-2019, 12:02 PM   #1
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 5,727
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
NEC question re: stranded marine cable?

Hey Everyone,

I am tinkering with my electrical this morning and ran into a question. I am considering using marine stranded triplex cable for my 120 volt circuits.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NV2AVS...v_ov_lig_dp_it

Unfortunately, my newest NEC is 20 years old and I couldn't find a good answer as to what receptacles are code approved for this application.

Anyone have familiarity with this?

Thanks.
PNW_Steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 12:36 PM   #2
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: astoria, oregon
Posts: 10
Year: 2001
Coachwork: international
Chassis: am tran
Engine: 466e
Rated Cap: 66
I have 5 workboats that are all wired with ancor wire. This wire is approved by coast guard and required by most marine surveyors. I used 10,12,14 for my 110 volts and 14,16 for for most of my 12 volt on the bus.
smokescreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 12:37 PM   #3
Skoolie
 
Pizote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 233
Year: 2007
Coachwork: ICCORP
Chassis: CE300
Engine: DT466
Rated Cap: 16
I donít have a direct answer to your question, but if you tin the ends, any household outlet that is compliant for ROMEX would work well.
__________________
Follow my build - and adventures at https://www.facebook.com/pizote.adventures
Pizote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 12:41 PM   #4
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 767
Year: 2007
Coachwork: Thomas Built
Chassis: Minotour
Engine: Chevy Express 3500 6.6l
I don’t.

It’s Non-metallic Sheathed Cable though, so it seems reasonable that all the code related to installation and protection would apply.

I went to the manufacturer site no mention of NFPA anywhere. I’d call them.

I’ve seen NM used in motor homes and when I see it mentioned I always want to ask why?
Danjo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 02:04 PM   #5
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 5,727
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjo View Post
I donít.

Itís Non-metallic Sheathed Cable though, so it seems reasonable that all the code related to installation and protection would apply.

I went to the manufacturer site no mention of NFPA anywhere. Iíd call them.

Iíve seen NM used in motor homes and when I see it mentioned I always want to ask why?
The boat cable is fairly fine stranded wire. I have found some details for using it in a boat. AYBC allows for using standard residential receptacles but they want a properly crimped, or crimped and soldered, ring terminal at the receptacle end and pin connectors at the panel.

So I have figured out how it should play in a boat. My question now is: Do NEC and RVIA requirements mirror AYBC requirements?

All of the factory built RVs I have owned have used typical NM solid wire. I questioned the wisdom of solid wire in a mobile application. As it turned out, I have had to correct issues with the solid wire in three different RVs. One had a nick in the solid conductor from the strippers. It broke right at the end of the insulation. Another had one of the screws on a receptacle had worked loose. That's third had the screw terminal on a breaker worked loose.
PNW_Steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 02:19 PM   #6
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,131
The marine standards are far superior to anything land or RV based. RVIA is a joke.

And best practices far superior to any standards.

Once you get to that level, why care about standards for DIY anyway?

Are you working in a context where you must submit to some sort of inspection?
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 02:37 PM   #7
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 5,727
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
The marine standards are far superior to anything land or RV based. RVIA is a joke.

And best practices far superior to any standards.

Once you get to that level, why care about standards for DIY anyway?

The folks over at the NFPA are much smarter than I am. They have a breadth of knowledge way beyond me. I don't always understand the why of some of the rules are needful but I will yield to the NFPA

At the beginning of a license prep class put on by Mike Holt that started with a slideshow of news articles covering fatal incidents that were due to improper or faulty electrical.

That hit home for me. My uncle was not an electrician by any stretch but was fairly handy. He installed a new receptacle for his clothes dryer. There was some kind of malfunction and causing spark or fire. My aunt, Uncle and two of my cousins made it out of the house. My two youngest cousins died in the fire.

Be safe.
PNW_Steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 02:38 PM   #8
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 623
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
No input on exactly what code says, depending on which code you choose, but if it were me (and it will be soon), I'd use standard fixtures with ring terminals, well crimped w/ a quality crimper, and NOT soldered.
__________________
-Sharon & Jody
Mr Beefy Short Bus Acquisition & Build Thread
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 02:45 PM   #9
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,131
I'm not saying just wing it.

I'm saying learn the fundamentals and best practices so that your rig is **safer** than it would be by just following codes without understanding the logic behind them.

When it comes to shore power in a mobile context, e.g. often no true Earth Ground available, personally I would not proceed without a professional experienced in exactly that niche at least participating in the design / component selection process, overseeing my work and inspecting / testing the work product.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 02:57 PM   #10
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 767
Year: 2007
Coachwork: Thomas Built
Chassis: Minotour
Engine: Chevy Express 3500 6.6l
Those codes are more than 100 years in the making. Many people spend their entire lives in the industry refining the materials, methods and codes. Why think twice?

My complaint with using NM in a motor home or bus is physical protection. The walls are thin. It’s easy to drive a screw and damage it.

I think the only question about that marine grade stuff is if the insulation is certified at the ampacties for standard NM in NEC code. You should ask them.
Danjo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 03:03 PM   #11
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 5,727
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus View Post
No input on exactly what code says, depending on which code you choose, but if it were me (and it will be soon), I'd use standard fixtures with ring terminals, well crimped w/ a quality crimper, and NOT soldered.
I have a nice crimper but I think that 10 gauge is the smallest that wire it will accommodate. Time to go tool shoping

Regarding soldering the connectors, Back around the time of Moses I worked installing car stereo and two way radios. A number of the two way installs were in logging trucks. During this time I also had opportunity correct a number of poorly done installs from another shop or DIY'er. The majority of the repair calls were due to poor wiring. Generally the problem was bad crimp connections.

We used uninsulated butt and ring terminals. We would crimp a good quality connector and a proper ratchet crimpers then solder it. And finally covered the connection with heavy duty heat shrink tube.

I don't recall a single callback on our installs due to wiring issues. The logging truck drivers had a tendency to leave their antennas behind compliments of low hanging tree branches. I am not going to take responsibility for that.

What is your objection to crimp+solder?
PNW_Steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 03:57 PM   #12
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 1,611
Year: 2000
Chassis: Blue Bird
Engine: ISC 8.3
I humbly submit that if I crimp is uniform and and tight as it should be, there'd be little possibility for solder to wick into the crimp. That said.. I have a crimper which I believe does an okay job with heavy lugs, but I have neither tooling nor quality terminals for doing the lighter gauge stuff (yet).

Pizote, don't tin the wires. Tinning wires before making a mechanical connection (screw or crimp) leads to trouble because the solder can soften and deform over time leaving the mechanical connection loose.

I'm planning to use that marine triplex wire too. It's just so far down the road for me now that I haven't bothered to search for terminals yet.

Anybody can access NFPA documents for free online at their web site. See more there. Create a free account, log in, and you're good to go. The viewer isn't the greatest -- it's not like browsing a PDF in your favorite reader -- but the price is hard to beat. NFPA 70 is the National Electrical Code. If I remember correctly it does have a skinny chapter applicable to RVs.
family wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 04:45 PM   #13
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 623
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
What is your objection to crimp+solder?
Mainly that with a solid crimp connection it's unnecessary, and if the crimp isn't solid (or is solid but loosens over time), the heat from a resistance increase and/or arcing can cause the solider to melt, which can either further the cascade of a loose connection, or cause a short.


I've seen a lot of bad crimps too, but more often than not, it was from people using the wrong/poor quality tools, using them improperly, poor terminals, using the wrong size terminals for a given wire, etc.
__________________
-Sharon & Jody
Mr Beefy Short Bus Acquisition & Build Thread
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 08:44 PM   #14
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 623
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
From another thread, Steve. But check out the video Danjo posted here. Good info:


http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f49/he...tml#post358527
__________________
-Sharon & Jody
Mr Beefy Short Bus Acquisition & Build Thread
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 09:20 PM   #15
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 5,727
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danjo View Post
Those codes are more than 100 years in the making. Many people spend their entire lives in the industry refining the materials, methods and codes. Why think twice?

I think the only question about that marine grade stuff is if the insulation is certified at the ampacties for standard NM in NEC code. You should ask them.
Good call. I will call and check with the and verify ampacity.

Regarding tinning the wire, the wire we are talking about is already tinned.

I have a bit of reluctance to go crimp only. In following behind other folks that user crimp only I found that most of the connections used incorrect materials, tools or techniques.

That led us to using uninsulated connectors, crimping then soldering and finally applying two layers of adhesive heat shrink tube to provide protection and strain relief.

It worked very well for us. I am going to order up a small ratchet crimper and tinker with some crimp only connection and see how it plays for me.
PNW_Steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 11:03 PM   #16
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 623
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNW_Steve View Post
I have a bit of reluctance to go crimp only. In following behind other folks that user crimp only I found that most of the connections used incorrect materials, tools or techniques.
I don't follow your logic. Are you planning to also use improper materials, tools, or techniques? If not, I'm failing to see the problem.

Did you watch the video Danjo provided at the link above? Like the guy shows, a proper crimp w/ the right tools & quality connects is a completely different animal than the slop-jobs I assume you're talking about.
__________________
-Sharon & Jody
Mr Beefy Short Bus Acquisition & Build Thread
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 11:11 PM   #17
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 5,727
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus View Post
I don't follow your logic. Are you planning to also use improper materials, tools, or techniques? If not, I'm failing to see the problem.

Did you watch the video Danjo provided at the link above? Like the guy shows, a proper crimp w/ the right tools & quality connects is a completely different animal than the slop-jobs I assume you're talking about.
I was simply pointing out that I have seen soooo many incorrectly done crimp connections that I have a bit of an aversion to that method.

Read my posts and it should be clear.
PNW_Steve is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 11:19 PM   #18
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 623
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
I was just trying to help.

And no, it's not clear - at least to me - why you have an aversion to the practice when you've said each time that the failure was due to circumstances which were both identifiable, and preventable. But I'm sure whatever way you go it will work out fine.
__________________
-Sharon & Jody
Mr Beefy Short Bus Acquisition & Build Thread
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 05:47 PM   #19
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Marana Az the town
Posts: 52
Year: 77
Coachwork: Gillig
Engine: 855 Cummins big cam
Rated Cap: single axle
In my opinion (multi licensed master electrician) using stranded wire to run your circuits makes no sense. You always want your wire pinned under a screw on a device, right? Not back stabs, not clamps on devices. If you use stranded wire to wire up receptacles and switches, now you have created not one but TWO places for an arcing open to get started. Arcing opens are what starts fires. ONE, at the crimped on ring or fork, and TWO, under the device's own screw. If you run your circuits using solid wire, and terminate under a screw, not a screw/clamp but under a SCREW HEAD, there is very little likelihood of it ever coming loose. That is, if you properly form your loop, place the loop under the screw head running the correct direction, (so tightening the screw tends to CLOSE, not open the loop, tighten down the screw like it matters, and use a quality device.

I still say treat your bus electrically like you are wiring a steel framed steel skinned building. Conduit or armored (flexible) wire (type MC) with a separate grounding conductor. ALWAYS use a two screw armored cable connector (not romex connector) on aluminum cable armor and ALWAYS put a red head between the wires and the armor sheathing at the end where the wires break out of the armor.
I REALLY prefer Ideal brand WING nuts, not even their wire nuts, for wire to wire connections. Their tan and their red connectors are excellent and versatile.
If you are going to spend all that money on that marine cable why not just buy armored cable (3 conductors black white and green for 120 volts) buy a box of armored cable connectors and always use a red head to protect the conductors where they break out of the armor. Use 4 square boxes with mud rings in wood frame (flush) construction or raised industrail covers for exposed work. Here is what my bus looks like with both 1/2 and 3/4 inch conduit and armored cable running up to the AC units:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 070.jpg (111.7 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 069.JPG (455.1 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 072.jpg (186.0 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 074.jpg (101.7 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 075.jpg (45.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 068.JPG (458.2 KB, 9 views)
wireguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 06:15 PM   #20
Bus Nut
 
TheHubbardBus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hotzona
Posts: 623
Year: 2003
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: 3800
Engine: Navistar T444e
Rated Cap: 24
Great post, wireguy! Thanks for this.


One area of concern: While our buses are a lot like steel-framed buildings, they're also a lot like boats. It's my understanding that in boating applications, per code, stranded wire is the only thing allowed, due primarily to concerns regarding flexibility & vibration. I'm curious as to your take on this:


"Marine wiring is unique, requiring both flexibility and resistance to corrosion. Unlike residential wiring that is protected by the wallboard, rarely disturbed or subject to vibration, wiring and connectors on boats are constantly being vibrated, bounced, and subjected to temperature variations, humidity, water, and corrosives. Where solid wire and wire nuts are common in residential wiring, both are explicitly banned by ABYC marine standards. In order to be flexible and corrosion resistant, marine wiring must be stranded copper - multiple copper wires within a common insulating jacket."


https://www.sailangle.com/articles/details/id/6
__________________
-Sharon & Jody
Mr Beefy Short Bus Acquisition & Build Thread
TheHubbardBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×