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Old 04-04-2010, 02:30 PM   #1
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Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Ive been trying to figure out how to run electricity in the cabin of my skoolie,i thought maybe i could just run a high impendance circuit breaker to a heavy duty extension cord which i'd then plug into RV lot power sources along the way on my trip. Do you guys think this would work? Thanks ahead of time.

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Old 04-04-2010, 06:15 PM   #2
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

That's essentially what I have. I can plug in my 3 circuits to the inverters, shorepower, or a gennie (or any combination of the power sources). It's simple, impossible to backfeed, and effective, but you do interrupt power to the circuit to switch over.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:06 PM   #3
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

can u explain backfeed to me?
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:34 AM   #4
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezypsnookle
can u explain backfeed to me?
"Backfeed" is when the electricity from your generator or battery bank/inverter goes OUT the external power line to the outside world, instead of coming in. If your bus is unplugged, backfeed is a danger to you, as you will have live, lethal voltage on the exposed bare male pins at the end of the cord. If you touch them, or touch the bus when you have the cord coiled in a cabinet with metal walls, watch out!

A greater danger is if the shoreline is plugged into a live outlet. If the on-board source is not synchronized with the shoreline, i.e. the pluses and minuses of the alternating current not occurring at the exact same milliseconds, the shoreline will grab the windings of your generator and could do great harm. (The inverter generators that are capable of being paired may be able to survive this with electronic rather than rotational synchronization.) I have seen video of a utility generator bigger than a semi-tractor self destruct when it was intentionally connected out of phase as part of a test. The phrase "having the generator walk across the room" is often used to impress the seriousness of this.

The greatest danger is to electricians and utility workers. Imagine an electrician got a call to the campground, and started by disconnecting the mains. When working on the "cold" branch circuits, he/she could be electrocuted by the electricity "backfeeding" from the generator on your bus to all the other wiring on your circuit. You could also cook your generator (or hopefully trip the breakers) trying to power 50 or so other campers' rigs via your backfeed.

If you had a whole-house generator, and did not have a proper transfer switch, and lines were down in a storm, the backfeed from your house could kill a linesman picking up a "dead" downed line. Grid-tied home or office solar systems must have "anti-islanding" circuitry to similarly prevent photovoltaic panels from energizing dead wires the same way, and creating an "island" of live wires back to the nearest break or disconnect.

This is why you have one of several methods to choose between shoreline or on-board power. The simplest is to have a generator socket, so that you either plug the bus wiring into the generator or to "shore" power, never both. Plugging the shoreline into a portable generator on the ground instead of a power outlet on a pole is a no-brainer. [EDIT: Sockets like Smitty posted and The Experience described can be used for an internal "switch" with permanent wiring]

A multi-pole manual switch that connects the bus wiring to either the shoreline or generator is the next level. You must be sure to break and transfer the neutral and ground, not tie them together and just break the hot leg. (And do not tie shoreline neutral to ground in the bus like wiring a house, the campground provides this link.) As a technical note, the switch must be "break before make" so the switch does not make the backfeed connection while it is being operated. Most common switches are of this type, but special "make before break" switches are out there.

The most advanced is a relay or series of relays working as an automatic transfer switch. A simple one uses one of two options. A transfer relay is pulled in all the time that shore power is present, and drops out when it fails. This kind could also initiate an automated "run request" to the genset. The other is to have the relay pull in whenever it sees the generator running. This option puts less hours on the relay coil, and allows the generator to crank at no load instead of full load. Most ATS have several stages and incorporate both, though the "run request" is now usually electronic and not necessarily a relay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Earth
Ive been trying to figure out how to run electricity in the cabin of my skoolie,i thought maybe i could just run a high impendance circuit breaker to a heavy duty extension cord which i'd then plug into RV lot power sources along the way on my trip. Do you guys think this would work? Thanks ahead of time.
Welcome!

RV wiring and a "shoreline" (taken from yachting terminology, no doubt) is common. There are two standard campground outlets types. The first are "30 amp" outlets at 120 volts. These provide 30 x 120 = 3600 watts. The other are "50 amp" outlets at 240 volts. The 240 volt wiring has two 120-volt hot legs, and can actually provide up to 100 amps at 120 volts, with the load divided 50 amps maximum per hot leg. These provide 50 x 240 = 100 x 120 = 12,000 watts. There are also some parking areas with "20 amp" service, which would be like a common household outlet and heavy cord, providing up to 2400 watts maximum.

If you are describing circuit breakers in terms of "impendance," you should probably do a bit of reading to learn more, or get a friend/relative to look over your shoulder or review your ideas about wiring. For instance, you have to have the proper sized wire to safely handle the amount of current you are building for. Most home center extension cords won't handle 15 amps continuous draw very well. If you put a 30-amp plug and 30-amp breaker on one of these, you could have a fire.

Good luck!
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Old 04-05-2010, 07:04 AM   #5
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Thanks for the replies, very helpful. I don't think I explained myself correctly. I want to run a power strip with an automatic circuit breaker in it to an extension cord ( of course ones that can handle the amps and watts) which will plug into the rv space or campground. Is this possible?
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Old 04-05-2010, 05:27 PM   #6
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Why wouldn't be? Most of the public parks (state, COE, Forestry service) and small private campgrounds have power boxes with 15/20/30 amp with some 50 amp outlets. Long term sites in private campgrounds usually have 30 and 50 amp outlets. You should be able to buy a 30 amp cord and tie it into a "breaker box" rather than try an buy a strip unit (they melt).
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Old 04-05-2010, 11:13 PM   #7
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

thank you for the backfeed lesson i kept wondering how i would switch over without having the rv plug being hot and smittys plug pic was a great visual reference

is that romex smitty or are u using sumthing special ...im going to look at ur bus forum so i bet im going to find out shortly....
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:34 PM   #8
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Yeah Smitty, I have the same question about the actual type of wire you used. What type of wire is feeding the system from the shore, and what are you using for your internal circuits? And I'm looking for specifics here if you don't mind, so when I go to the store I know exactly what to get. My knowledge of electrical wiring is pretty sketchy, but don't worry, I have a more knowledgeable friend who is helping me out and will look things over before I connect to any power source.
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:50 PM   #9
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

I wouldn't use Romex. I won't use Romex. You need to use a stranded wire (coach guys like Ancor brand but it's pricey... some will use heavy extension cords... tin the ends to be attached to fixtures with solder). We stripped the wiring out of our Eagle and saved it. That's what we will use to wire the skoolie (already used part on the Class C).

Scroll down to the bottom of the page http://users.cwnet.com/thall/fredhobe.htm Fred Hobe is a commercial bus (coach) converter
"Way to save money on wiring
I buy 100 foot extension cord when they're on sale number, 12/3 conductor wire size. I can get them for as little as $15.00 and they come in different colors. I get several different colors and use yellow for air conditioners, orange for lights, black for wall plugs (120 volt) and green for 12 volt. They are UL approved and very flexible. You need to tin the ends when you hook them up to your main and on other connections use High lugs. Use an indent sqeezer to make good connections. You can buy 100 ft. cords with plugs on them cheaper than you can buy the wire by the foot. I use about 500 ft. of wire on a coach."
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:18 PM   #10
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Quote:
Originally Posted by lornaschinske
http://users.cwnet.com/thall/fredhobe.htm Fred Hobe is a commercial bus (coach) converter
"Way to save money on wiring
I buy 100 foot extension cord when they're on sale number, 12/3 conductor wire size. I can get them for as little as $15.00 and they come in different colors. I get several different colors and use yellow for air conditioners, orange for lights, black for wall plugs (120 volt) and green for 12 volt..."
Is 12/3 conductor heavy enough for an air conditioner? Or am I thinking of the 14/3 extension cords? What is a 'standard' extension cord?
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:27 PM   #11
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Thanks Smitty, I am very familiar with 12V wiring, but wasn't sure about the gauge requirements of 110V. I know that when it comes to 12V, 8 gauge is common for connecting small inverters and ofter 1/0 or larger is needed due to the current draw. No wonder those cords on RVs equipped for 50amp service are larger than a garden hose!
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:31 PM   #12
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

I'm going to have to play the other side of the card here and disagree with Smitty. Yes, stapling the solid wire properly will go a long ways towards keeping it alive and with the amount of miles the average bus sees it might not ever be a problem, but stranded wire is the correct material to use. ANY vibrations transmitted to the wire will cause it to work harden which will eventually cause it to break. Stapling it ever 12 inches might go a long ways towards preventing this, but what a pain. Stranded wire costs substantially more than solid wire, but if you want evidence that it is the correct choice for a moving vehicle. If you want evidence look at any vehicle on the road with it's hundreds and hundreds of feet of wiring, all done with stranded wire. Car manufacturers don't do anything more expensive unless legally required to or out of necessity.

As a side note, stranded wire can safely carry more current than the equivalent size of solid core wire. This is because the electrons only flow on the surface of the conductor itself. Stranded wire has more surface area in a given gauge than solid core assuming you have good SO rated wire that has more than 6 strands. This is why you'll often see one size smaller extension cords (14 gauge versus 12 gauge solid wire) rated for the same loads.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:43 PM   #13
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

blunder was wired before with extension cords wire nut tied together on both 110v and 12v systems
im going to have to have sum one else help with the electric aspect of the bus its so complex
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:47 PM   #14
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_experience03
As a side note, stranded wire can safely carry more current than the equivalent size of solid core wire. This is because the electrons only flow on the surface of the conductor itself. Stranded wire has more surface area in a given gauge than solid core assuming you have good SO rated wire that has more than 6 strands. This is why you'll often see one size smaller extension cords (14 gauge versus 12 gauge solid wire) rated for the same loads.
Ah yes, this is true. All my previous experience has been with stranded wire. In fact some of the best automotive wire I have used has higher strand count (very fine strands, but thousands of them) and is usually oxygen free copper. But that stuff gets expensive fast! As for solid wire, most RV manufacturers use it and it seems to work okay. Not saying which is better, but either can and have been used successfully.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:54 PM   #15
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
Wire-size & Max amps
#14-15 amps
#12-20 amps
#10-30 amps
#8-40 amps
#6-50 amps

That is for 110v.

Smitty
It's pretty much the same for any voltage - it's the current that heats up the wire if the wire size is too small and the resistance is high. Electrical code adds temperature ratings into the mix, but I don't have a copy of the "bible."

Higher voltages (more pressure)provide more watts with less current, so the wires are less likely to heat up and can be smaller. But high voltages can arc, and need better insulation. Most wires where I've seen the ratings have insulation rated at either 32 or 600 volts.

It's usual practice with the DC to up-size the wires a couple of notches, because more current is needed to get wattage out at the lower pressure. For example, police car radios usually use #6 wires for 25 amp transmitter draw with a 30 or 40 amp fuse, when #10 should have been OK. Longer wires also need to be up-sized, but one end of the bus to the other won't be long enough to affect this on AC, only on very high-current DC.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:57 PM   #16
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

That fine stranded wire can't be used with most listed AC devices, such as circuit breakers. Don't put tinned wires under a screw (compression) connector.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:31 AM   #17
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Quote:
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DUDE! I just went from being called the "King" to this?? You sure know how to harsh a guys buzz

OK, could you name one single example of ANY romex failing (which was properly installed) in an RV, bus, housetruck...
Don't worry Smitty, I plan to use stranded wire for my 12V circuits and solid wire for my 110V system except for places where there will be subject to repetitive movement like on the cord to the generator and shore line. Most 110V parts are made for solid wire. Stranded wire is too easy to have a 'loose strand' cause short circuits and other nasty problems.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:23 PM   #18
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Although I am new to dual system powering, I'm not new to 12v and battery systems. The best and most sure way to make your batts last longer is to disconnect them if you are not using them. I don't care what the meter says, what books say- I have been there done that. I went through too many trolling motor batts until I disconnected them- you'll get way more life out of them if you take 15 seconds to disconnect.
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Old 04-08-2010, 05:35 AM   #19
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

Smitty,what's your reason for running only the water pump dc? Unless a converter is used,it can't use shore power.What's your plan?
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:39 PM   #20
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Re: Question: Simple solution to having electricity??

I intend to use stranded wire for the Silver Snail. I like the idea of cutting up extension cords. In fact, I have a couple of "dead" ones (missing, broken plug ends) laying around the garage. The bus will be moving a lot and I think that road vibrations MAY play a factor, so we'll be going with mostly 12v-type wiring (stranded), not 110v (Romex).

I think that in Smitty's case, he intends to be relatively sedentary with his bus while others (like me) are on the move. I'd say it makes sense to use 110v-type Romex if you're sedentary and 12v-type stranded wire if you're on the move a lot. I think we need to look at the purpose of the bus, and design accordingly. That's just my 1/50th of a dollar.

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