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Old 09-13-2017, 01:25 PM   #1
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Solar Hybrid Electric Skoolie Adventure Begins!

Ok, not really. Not that kind of solar hybrid electric anyway, cool as that would be. But a bus electric system powered by solar, using batteries from a Nissan Leaf Electric, and recharged when needed from a Toyota Prius Hybrid.

We're just getting started on our Skoolie journey, and I thought it might be fun to start a thread so you can all see what happens when a EE who dabbles in electric cars, plugin hybrids, and home solar tries to design a Skoolie electric system (and conversion to put it in). Should be entertaining. At least to me. Some day when its all over ;)

If things go to plan (ha!) our family of five is going to take the plunge and start full timing next summer. Enough of the big city and the Phoenix summers already. Hopefully we'll be spending a lot of time out boondocking in places with trees and water, gradually rehydrating from our overlong stay in the desert. We're likely putting down a deposit on our bus this week, a 1997 Blue Bird All American RE 40' Activity bus with transit style windows, under bus storage, freshened Cummins 8.3 and an Allison MD3060.

To that end I'm hoping to design a pretty robust solar electric system to keep us functional out there. I designed and installed a 5.5kW system on our house, so I at least have some idea what I'm in for. My basic thought going forward is to try and model the design more on off grid homesteaders, whose systems are geared toward maximal efficiency, rather than traditional RVs which seem based more around convenience and presumed access to utilities.

I also have two assets to start with that I'm hoping will come in handy. One is a complete functional disassembled salvage Nissan Leaf. The other is a Toyota Prius that we will likely dolly behind the bus. At a minimum the Leaf will probably be donating its battery pack to the bus, about 15kWh of Lithium batteries weighting 400lbs and about the size of suitcase. High on my list of favorite stupid Prius tricks is the little know fact that you can tap into the High Voltage battery and draw up to about 5kW (maybe as high as 9) without any modifications, and the engine will kick on and off as needed to keep it's own battery in a safe operating range. That would at least give us a backup power source without having to worry about a generator. And when we do need to use it, it should be as efficient as the best diesel generators, with emissions approaching the best propane models.

So here's my basic plan, still lots to be fleshed out. It's pretty much all based around that big Leaf battery, most likely reconfigured to 48V. Primary charging is from solar, with options for charging from the Prius, shore power, or the bus alternator when driving. Having a way to charge the bus battery off the 48V also seems like a nice backup.



About the only piece of equipment I've looked into in detail is the Morningstar Tristar MPPT 600V charge controller which should work equally well for charging the 48V battery off the Solar or the Prius's 230VDC output. It could also handle a wind turbine should we decide to add one for overnight charging.

If I can figure out a way to keep the Leaf battery in it's original 360V configuration, there might be some other goodies I can use as well. The BMS and 3.6kW charger for sure, and possibly the electric AC compressor and coolant heater as well. But 360VDC compatible inverters seem to be a bit rare. I wonder how hard it would be to modify the 80kW drive inverter to put out 120/240V AC at 60Hz

I've also been working on a spreadsheet to start modeling our usage, to get a better sense of sizing for the inverter, solar and battery. Not much real data in there yet, but the solar output is scaled off our home system production, and the frame work is in place so we can model basic appliance usage and cycling loads like the fridge and AC once we have better consumption numbers.



Rob
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Old 09-13-2017, 01:45 PM   #2
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Post often with lots of pictures. I drive a Chevy Volt and have often wondered how I could incorporate a similar battery pack into my build.

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Old 09-13-2017, 02:09 PM   #3
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Sounds fun Rob, I'll be watching!
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:11 PM   #4
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If I can figure out a way to keep the Leaf battery in it's original 360V configuration, there might be some other goodies I can use as well. The BMS and 3.6kW charger for sure, and possibly the electric AC compressor and coolant heater as well. But 360VDC compatible inverters seem to be a bit rare. I wonder how hard it would be to modify the 80kW drive inverter to put out 120/240V AC at 60Hz
I don't know if you're going to find an inverter that natively accepts 360vdc. Maybe you could run the 360vdc down to 170vdc and feed it into the high side of an SMPS high frequency transformerless inverter?

Starting with high voltage dc means you're already part of the way there. Usually a major piece of an inverter is boosting the dc up from battery voltage levels of 12-48vdc.
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:37 PM   #5
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I don't know if you're going to find an inverter that natively accepts 360vdc. Maybe you could run the 360vdc down to 120vdc and feed it into an SMPS style high frequency transformerless inverter?

Starting with high voltage dc means you're already part of the way there. Usually a major piece of an inverter is boosting the dc up from battery voltage levels of 12-48vdc.
Agreed. It's really bugging me to have to go down to 48V. I'm going to keep digging, but ultimately there will have to be a tradeoff between time, cost, and efficiency. In the limit I know I could do this all full custom and do it the way it should be, but given the realities of life it would probably take me a couple years to complete ;)

Rob
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Bolt View Post
Post often with lots of pictures. I drive a Chevy Volt and have often wondered how I could incorporate a similar battery pack into my build.

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I was able to do 2 kinds of taps into my Volt when I had it, I first was ablew to gain 2000 watts continuous from the 12 volt system, and it worked well.. and did just as the OP described, the engine started pewriodically to keep the battery charged... and that worked well...

I then tapped the 360 Volt DC battery (carefully and what a TOTAL PITA!!!). and had a friend who worked for a compant that makes power conversion devices loan me a DC to AC inverter (10 kw).. and it worked.. EXCEPT that it caused the volt to throw codes related to the battery system .. for awhile the engine would start and stop as needed.. but at one point the engine shut down and marked itself as Unavailable and the car turned off so no more charging... without a full power-off reboot of the car..

now im sure there are more tactile ways to do this than just buying the connectors and making big old honkin Y-cables like we did from the main battery to the vehicle and to the external inverter.. it was purely experimental so not too much pre-thought went into it as making it permanent..

it was another one of those "I was bored lets do some crazy experiment moments"..

-Christopher
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:12 PM   #7
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Very cool, Christopher!

Same idea on the Prius, only difference is people have had more time to mess with them over the last 15 yrs. A lot was leveraged off the learnings of the early efforts to add plugin in packs in terms of understanding the limits of the hardware/software. The Prius has a 100A 12V dc:dc converter, so you can run up to 1.5kW or so off the 12V system. The high voltage system is monitoring current in and out various components and will throw an error and shut down when it senses too much unexplained draw. The limits are in the 20-30A range, so 5kW is pretty safe. The Enginer plugin packs exploited this method to feed charge into the system through a dc:dc converter keeping the current below the limit. Higher power/current plugin conversions had to add an additional custom CAN controller to keep the system happy by spoofing certain commands.

Here are some examples of past projects using the Prius for backup power for anyone that's interested.

http://priusgen.sandbox.org
http://www.priups.com
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html
http://www.converdant.biz/home



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Old 09-13-2017, 03:36 PM   #8
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this is some cool stuff using the Prius!.. and it looks like more refimninmg has been done so it works better.. the Prius has a similar system to the volt.. people claimed 1500 watts is all you could get from the DC-DC inverter.. however I pulled 2000 off mine and never burned it up.. I supposed some wattage couldve been coming from the battery however I never ended up wit ha dead 12 volt battery.. and it wasnt that big.. so i have to believe the inverter itself was pushing most of that power if not all of it.

but going from the 360 volt to 120 VAC seems like the best way to go.. eliminating the 12 volt middleman.

does the Prius engine run efficiently like you speak of when its cold too? the issue I found was the engine on the volt never warmed up.. I used the 12 volt inverter method out of necessity after an ice storm took my power.. i had a full tank of gas in the car.. those 2000 watts ran my modern gas furnace and refrigerator and some lights perfectly...

the OBD2 monitor showed my gas engine never got into its efficiency zone.. as it did a start-run-stop cycle.. and since the onboard generator is huge it didnt run very long when only pulling 2KW so it spent more time off than on.
-Christopher
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:08 PM   #9
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Agreed. It's really bugging me to have to go down to 48V.
Rob
You might be able to use a pre-built EGS002 pcb unit to start with. That little board integrates an EG8010 signal generator with an IR2110 mosfet driver. Various regulating and control bits for a sine wave inverter are already on the logic board. Some versions come with a display screen.

The IR2110 chips should be able to drive multiple mosfets per leg for increased capacity. Feed the whole thing with 170vdc and you'd just have to dial in capacitor and inductor values on your output filter to get nice clean 120vac.

On the other hand, you might be able to find an inverter with a blown input stage and salvage a pre-built high-side that way.

Though, as you point out, there does come a point when you just don't have time to re-invent any more wheels. It would be a great project, though.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:33 PM   #10
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all good thoughts..
I am using nissan leaf and also chevy volt packs in both our electric solectria vehicles.

Talking about DC to ac converters. I am using apc surt8000 series . That is ac-dc -dc to AC UPS and can run full time of DC. The internal small battery bank is192 Volt positive and negative so total 384 volt. That is pretty close to chevy volt and leaf batteries alike. Best part .. they are very cheap used, come with all the software gadgets and pure sine wave.


On the leaf batteries we are using the original BMS system.
The volt's BMS is a little harder to crack.

later J
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:43 PM   #11
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Have you figured out a way to send excess solar power to your Prius when your Leaf battery is full?

You can't unburn the gasoline it used to top up your RV but it might give your Prius more range when it has been parked a day or two and you have a solar surplus.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:42 PM   #12
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You might be able to use a pre-built EGS002 pcb unit to start with.
Thanks for the heads up, that's pretty interesting. I do have a few backends around that might work with something like this, a scrap 10kW motor drive and a Gen 1 Prius inverter lying around.... My main concern with anything homebuilt is if it will be reliable and robust enough for full time bus living.

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all good thoughts..
Talking about DC to ac converters. I am using apc surt8000 series.

On the leaf batteries we are using the original BMS system.
The volt's BMS is a little harder to crack.

later J
Thanks Joe, that's pretty cool. Good to know there are UPS inverters out there that go that high in DC Voltage. The other problem would be finding an efficient solar charge controller that can put out voltages this high. It's frustrating knowing that my string voltage will likely be very close to the pack voltage (~380V peak power for 10x 72 cell panels for example) and that the input MPPT stage on most inverters is working at this voltage level anyway. But probably can't guarantee it will always be high enough to not need a buck/boost type converter.

BTW Here's the videos I made documenting my Leaf teardown and reassembly into a tabletop demo back in 2015-16, the thread where I documented what I learned.



Re-using complete Leaf Drive System (w/VCM) - DIY Electric Car Forums

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Have you figured out a way to send excess solar power to your Prius when your Leaf battery is full?
My Priuses are just standard plug-less, so they don't have enough battery capacity to make it worth much. I do hope to use a charge controller with a diversion load option and do something useful with the excess. In order to have enough capacity to cover periods of high usage or poor weather its almost guaranteed there will be excess solar production most of the time. I know water heating is a common use for excess, but wasn't necessarily planning on having a big tank. Probably propane tankless. Might make sense for running water to air heating in cooler weather though. There are other interesting ones out there too, like running an ice maker and then using the ice for air cooling....
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:32 PM   #13
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nice job on that leaf, great cars, the used battery market i a lot more expensive then chevy volt battery, at least in my experience.

ice storage:
yes, better efficiency to make ice but a lot heavier then batteries.

calculation.

1kg water at 20 celsius to frozen at 0 celsius requires 417 kj
A chiller with a cop of 4 will use 417/4= 105 kj

105KJ=105kwattsec=30watthour for 1 kg of water


a chevy volt 2 kwh module weights 13 kg or 32 Lbs

13 liter = 13 kg of water will store 390 watthour.

so weight wise not very beneficial but very elegant. energy wise probably the same , the batteries charge /discharge efficiency about 90% so total 90x90= 81%
but the cold storage unless super insulated will have losses that might be beneficial or not.

please check my math.

later J
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Old 09-14-2017, 11:58 PM   #14
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Solar Hybrid Electric Skoolie Adventure Begins!

I don't know if even a scaled down system would make any sense for a bus, but here's an interesting commercial example:
https://www.ice-energy.com/wp-conten...duct-Sheet.pdf

28kWh to "charge" a 265 gallon tank, producing 20 ton hours (240,000 btu) of cooling. By comparison my home 5 ton AC runs at about 6kW, or 24kWh for 20 ton hours.

Not a bad way to use energy that would otherwise be thrown away....


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Old 09-15-2017, 08:07 AM   #15
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Thanks for the heads up, that's pretty interesting. I do have a few backends around that might work with something like this, a scrap 10kW motor drive and a Gen 1 Prius inverter lying around.... My main concern with anything homebuilt is if it will be reliable and robust enough for full time bus living.
Well, there are different ways to look at that.

Nothing is error-proof or fault-proof, so even the most well manufactured unit could fail. If you build it yourself, you will know how everything works, and you will probably create a modular unit that a real human with normal tools could hope to repair. You can plan sockets for ICs instead of all surface mount stuff, interface slots for the prefab PCB portions so boards can be swapped out, access panels in cases, robust MOSFETs and heat dissipaters that are sized well for the power you plan to handle, etc.

At least if something goes wrong with a home-built unit, you know it can be repaired. For me, knowing that would be a major part of the benefit you'd get from such an effort. Being able to swap a few parts and get a power unit running again has some value in and by itself when compared to doing warranty claims (if you're lucky) or having to cough up the cost of a whole new inverter.

Oh, as for build quality... ever see the innards of a cheap imported inverter?
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Old 09-15-2017, 03:30 PM   #16
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Well, there are different ways to look at that.

Nothing is error-proof or fault-proof, so even the most well manufactured unit could fail. If you build it yourself, you will know how everything works, and you will probably create a modular unit that a real human with normal tools could hope to repair. You can plan sockets for ICs instead of all surface mount stuff, interface slots for the prefab PCB portions so boards can be swapped out, access panels in cases, robust MOSFETs and heat dissipaters that are sized well for the power you plan to handle, etc.

At least if something goes wrong with a home-built unit, you know it can be repaired. For me, knowing that would be a major part of the benefit you'd get from such an effort. Being able to swap a few parts and get a power unit running again has some value in and by itself when compared to doing warranty claims (if you're lucky) or having to cough up the cost of a whole new inverter.

Oh, as for build quality... ever see the innards of a cheap imported inverter?


Very good points...



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Old 09-21-2017, 09:25 PM   #17
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Been thinking more about options for charging the 48V house battery pack from the Bus engine.

As I see it there are two main times when we'd want to do this:

1) Power AC and other loads while driving, when there is not enough stored charge in the battery, not getting enough from solar, or need to arrive at destination with full pack for overnight usage.

2) A backup option for charging while camped to charging off the Prius.

I see three main ways to accomplish this:

1) 48V "alternator" and a simple charge controller.

2) A high voltage alternator feeding into the same 600V morningstar controller as the solar and Prius.

3) A 12V to 48V converter off the bus's existing 12V system

Right now I'm not really considering option 3. The 12V alternator can only put out a little over a kW. Upgrading to a high output might double that, which might be ok but would still be pretty strained. Additionally, if something goes wrong and you fry the 12V electrics the bus is dead. Generally seems like a bad idea.

Option 1 has some merit, but there are no 48V off the shelf alternators I'm aware of. 24V can be found, and if they are isolated from chassis ground, theoretically you could stack 2 in series and get 48V. Since there were 2 motor driven AC compressors on the bus, there are technically 2 ready made positions to add belt driven accessories. There are also fairly common modifications made to automotive alternators to boost the output voltage for low rpm wind turbine use, which would probably be sufficient to supply reasonable current at 48V at engine rpms, but still probably only 1-2 kW. For example:
Wind Turbine Permanent Magnet Alternator Generator Delco PMA PMG 12V DC | eBay

Add to that, alternators are generally pretty poor efficiency wise. Maybe less so if you modify and rework the rectifier / regulator. Cheap Non-MPPT / dc:dc converter 48V charge controllers are also going to have pretty poor efficiency.

So right now I'm looking primarily at option 2. If you're going to spend $1000+ on a fancy charge controller it seem like you should do as many jobs as you can with it ;) It is meant to work with wind generator up to 500V, so it should be still pretty well matched to its design use.

I've been exploring two main ways this might be accomplished.

1) Use an generator from a wind application. Unfortunately all the lower price options I've found are geared toward low voltage systems. Only the big pricey units seem to run high voltages like the Morningstar wants to see. One cheap option that might fly is the Fisher and Paykel washing machine motor that is popular with DIY wind builders. They usually mod them to be better suited for their purposes, but an unmodded one might just put out enough voltage to work. Still probably only 1-2kW at best, so might need more than one.
The Back Shed: F&P 36 pole 40% more power than 42 pole

2) Use a generator head from a generator. In theory this should be simple. But cheap 3 phase heads meant for diesel rpms are apparently unicorns. A used one off an old generator with a dead engine might be an option. Here's a 25kW unit sitting in a local junkyard that I wander through from time to time...


3 phase is nice because it will smooth out to DC more easily in the rectifier, likely translating to better efficiency and less stress on the charge controller from ripple. Diesel is nice because they are meant to run at 1800rpm, so they are more likely to be well behaved over the rpm range of the diesel engine ~1200-2400rpm.

Gasoline heads are meant to run at 3600rpm, so not as well matched. Either have to gear up with an actual gear box or maybe pulley ratios, but not ideal.

That said, here's a brand new Harbor Freight 10kW 240V 3600rpm head for $400 ;)
https://www.harborfreight.com/10000-...ead-45416.html

Any of these options are going to need a rectifier and certain amount of smoothing cap. Doable but not trivial at these voltages. A transformer or capacitive doubler might also be needed to boost the voltage up into the peak efficiency range of the morning start (300V+).

For any of these options I'm considering using something like a clutched AC compressor pulley, so the generator / alternator can be disengaged by default, and only engaged when in use.

Rob
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:43 PM   #18
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The same junkyard also has 5 or 6 of these capstone 30kW microturbines sitting in some junked hybrid electric buses that I've had my eye on for some time....

https://youtu.be/fkCaFc-QXec



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Old 09-26-2017, 12:30 AM   #19
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If you can take the leaf's battery apart, can you reconfigure it to be 48v? Just change a lot of the serial circuits into parallel?
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Old 09-26-2017, 02:19 AM   #20
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2) Use a generator head from a generator. In theory this should be simple. But cheap 3 phase heads meant for diesel rpms are apparently unicorns.

3 phase is nice because it will smooth out to DC more easily in the rectifier, likely translating to better efficiency and less stress on the charge controller from ripple. Diesel is nice because they are meant to run at 1800rpm, so they are more likely to be well behaved over the rpm range of the diesel engine ~1200-2400rpm.

Rob
Rob-

Check out military gensets- diesel and 3-phase. MEP 003 might be good choice. I've got one of those and the bigger MEP 004. Heavy and built for continuos use, unlike disposable BigBox gensets.

Screen Shot 2017-09-26 at 1.17.09 AM.png

maybe even a MEP002 5 Kw (underated by 50%)

Screen Shot 2017-09-26 at 1.17.48 AM.png
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