Water Heating System Advice - Off Grid Full Time - Need your help

[JDOnTheGo]

Howdy Ryan, I don't think any of this is relevant but maybe it will lead somewhere...

If the goal is 'low expense living', your best options are solar and wind. The cost of running/maintaining a generator adds up pretty quickly.

It takes 1 BTU to heat one pound of water one degree. In my case (11 gallon electric water heater with a 1500 watt element and heat exchanger), the necessary power can be obtained from solar electric (though I have not done so yet - but I am thinking about it). I've also considered a small solar water heat collector on the roof (circulating glycol) and warming the water stored in the hot water tank. I'm still in the research stage of this so not sure if it is a good idea for an RV/bus yet. Finally, if sitting in one place for long periods, maybe one of the small wind turbines is a possibility. I think for most RV/bus folks, they are not a good option due to height and nuisance of putting it up/taking it down (sitting in one place helps that).

[TheBusHome]

Rob, totally get what you mean mate. It’s nkt so much me filling up with diesel it’s that the diesel, petrol and lpg pumps are all side by side and majority of filling stations in the UK are generally soaked as our pumps don’t have the drip protecting things on the nossils here like the ones I’ve used when I’ve been in the states or Canada so out handles and nossils are generally covered in fuel and you have to wear gloves to fill up. So generally fumes around even before you pick up a hose! Good tip about a shut off though. I’d considered thinking something like that would be needed for a fuel fill up anyway because it’s just common sense after what the eccotemp manuals say. It’s more remembering that’s the thing - need a huge sign on fuel gauge saying “disconnect the water heater before you fill up Ryan you idiot so you don’t blow the place up” haha

[TheBusHome]

Howdy JD, I don’t mind if it’s relevant or not, like you said sometimes a seemingly irrelevant comment can spark an idea in the noggin so I’m always happy for any comments and suggestions, I appreciate it.

Not entirely irrelevant though, I’m also in the planning stage hopefully ready to get cracking in spring (the only thing that affects that is auction times and bus suitability - if I’m super lucky to find one around then... boom, cracked it and away I go).

I hear what you’re saying about a generator. I probably wasn’t clear in my original post, it was already turning into an essay as it was haha - the plan is to run as much as possible (with exception of heating/aircon) off the solar & battery bank (via invertor). I though a generator as a backup that comes on on demand for if I need to use the A/C - (been looking at the domestic freshwell 3000 under bench). I want to put in a nice small wood burning stove for general winter heating. The foam insulation should hopefully keep the heat in for that enough, avoids the need for extra propane too I guess. Should be able to source plenty of free fire wood from the forest from fallen old branches and trees.

That’s good to note about how many BTU is needed for how much water per degree.

Regarding the wind aspect, I don’t think it’s really an option for me - side note: I designed back in 2008 a product that utilised solar panels and a mini wind turbine to power a remote camera system for filming anything that required live or recorded video or stills - won’t go into detail but basically it used the mini turbines from Marlec Engineering in the UK. The main issue was like you say height and also surroundings in terms of wind flow because of building or tree or obstacle heights causing turbulence reducing the efficiency of them. They really do need optimal location and height to work and on a bus it’s not going to be the case in a lot of places. certainly a lot cheaper than solar but the output isn’t always as much as expected so you’re lucky to power much more than small electronic low power stuff really. Same can be said with solar but the only thing to factor in with solar really is angle of the panel in relation to your latitude. So for me, optimal angle is 65 degrees from horizontal, obviously as I’ll be mounting them flat I’ll need to factor that into the calcs meaning I’ll need more to compensate for reduced efficiency. Also need to make sure zero shadows are cast because depending how it is set up, a tiny shadow on one panel can reduce the entire system by half (unless you configure it a specific way but that’s another topic).

As you said, I’ll be in one place for a decent length of time so in that aspect wind would seem a good option but having worked with those turbines before which are great turbines, I don’t thing they’d serve me all that well. Not saying they wouldn’t be good for someone else though - the thing I’ve found about Skoolie conversions so far is that a lot of things work for most and some are really specific only to specific people and builds because of how unique and diverse US buses can be. It’s great how versatile they can be isn’t it.

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by TheBusHome

One example - it’s cheaper for me to get and import a US Skoolie than it is to buy a bus in the UK. Skoolies seem to have low mileage like 70-200k tops from what I’ve seen. U.K. buses don’t get retired until they’ve got like 10 times that on the clock and even they they sell them for at least 4 times what you can get a Skoolie for and they’ve probably had about 4 engine replacements in that time haha they get hammered.

This is because the UK doesn't do "school buses". When kids go to school by bus, they catch regular city buses.

The big attraction here in the US is that school buses only run about 4 hours a day, for 180 days a year. The rest of the time they are parked.

So buses average maybe 15000 miles a year. The equivalent city transit buses sell at the same age, with 7-800 000 miles. They get a "half-life" refit at around 500 000 miles, and when they sell they really are approaching the enf of their lives. DOesn't make them a bad buy, but you have to be extra careful about what you are getting.

[miscrms]

Originally Posted by TheBusHome

It’s more remembering that’s the thing - need a huge sign on fuel gauge saying “disconnect the water heater before you fill up Ryan you idiot so you don’t blow the place up” haha

Good plan ;)

There’s lots of info online about adding a hot water coil to a wood stove. In general I’d say this is a very attractive option, but keep in mind like solar it’s really only compatible with a tank based system. And you would only get hot water when the wood stove is being used. So practically you would need a second source.



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[TheBusHome]

Twigg, very true mate. You hit the nail on the head. That’s why I’d rather import a US Skoolie I don’t fancy the risk of a city bus at all.

[TheBusHome]

Originally Posted by miscrms

Good plan ;)

There’s lots of info online about adding a hot water coil to a wood stove. In general I’d say this is a very attractive option, but keep in mind like solar it’s really only compatible with a tank based system. And you would only get hot water when the wood stove is being used. So practically you would need a second source.

Yeah I stumbled across the coil method for stoves accidentally a while back and it really appealed to me. At the time I was looking at all the options including converting a shipping container (but don’t have land to put it on, then tiny homes (again though, no land and t silver parking issues where it’ll be parked as well as camp ground cost (like £20 a day!). So I looked at motorbikes and ended up discovering the Skoolie conversion movement which I committed to completely . I sadly don’t know if I’ve got the room in this particular build, I’m trying to work that out - mainly because I need so much water which will take up most of not all the room underneath on this bus.

I’ll be doing another build after this and vlogging that too so maybe on that one ....

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

A DIY solar water system is not that expensive.
A series or loops of pipe on the roof.
Open up water heater casing and coil the solar loop piping around the outside of the tank just like the stove idea and stuff it all back in the casing with insulation.
Find and size a 12v pump that can handle the temp and the head pressure to get it to the roof and back.
Use antifreeze in the solar loop(ethylene/glycol).
And a 20-30$ point of use TMV (thermostatic mixing valve) at each fixture.
And a thermostat with an aqua stat to control the solar loop pump that runs the pump when the outside piping temp reaches 80-90 and you want it to run during the hottest parts of the day to keep the system from overheating/boiling out.
That's the simplest solar system and there a lot more designs like a drain back system that I think we be a better option because instead of the pump having to run to keep the system from overheating it allows the pump less run time but it requires another tank in the build to store the glycol when it's not needed and a little bit more valves and vents in the system.
I am not a solar water guru but I have done several types of commercial installs that I think are very doable for a SKOOLIE.
If you want to look into the idea that could be your secondary source in the summer to your wood stove source in the winter.
Good luck

[TheBusHome]

Jolly Roger bus 223,

I read that with the A-Team theme in my head haha That sounds like you could totally do a video making one with the A-Team theme music over the top of it. Sounds like a great project mate. I love it when people like you engineer innovative stuff like that with basic low cost parts. It’s the sort of stuff I see a video of and am like if the world goes to s**t I want that guy on the team haha

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

You can you tube stuff all day and like it without understanding it?
I do piping for a living in many various applications so sometimes I have to dumb myself down to see what the DIY ers are actually accomplishing without all the computer based controls and measuring devices,programming installed? That I deal with daily? A lot of times I really enjoy looking at the basic idea's and start building what suits me from the basics of what to do.
Grew up with and love the A-TEAM wish they were still on TV.
You way up North yank's watched the A-TEAM? Thought that was an AMERICAN show?

[TheBusHome]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

.
You way up North yank's watched the A-TEAM? Thought that was an AMERICAN show?

I’m British mate, yeah grew up with the A-Team as a kid. One of my favourite shows.

[OldWardBus]

Originally Posted by TheBusHome

Twigg, very true mate. You hit the nail on the head. That’s why I’d rather import a US Skoolie I don’t fancy the risk of a city bus at all.

Last year, I deployed to Fairford and while I was exploring the downtown of one of those beautiful cities, Bath I believe it was, my buddies and I came upon a couple fishing for a big stick from behind a fence. We assisted them, and they mentioned it was for the wood burner in their conversion! They had taken a Mercedes dock-height truck, probably 20 feet long, and fully converted it. I didn't ask prices, but I'm sure there's a reason they went that way with it. Plus, the thing looked great, and they said it's tough as nails, and hasn't let them down yet! They had been at it for something like 8 years. I'm sure you could find a commercial truck much easier than a bus over there!

Just my .02 pents

[TheBusHome]

Originally Posted by OldWardBus

Last year, I deployed to Fairford

They had taken a Mercedes dock-height truck, probably 20 feet long, and fully converted it. I didn't ask prices, but I'm sure there's a reason they went that way with it.

Hey mate, nice one! I’m ex Royal Air Force, do assuming you may be USAF too with going to Fairford.

QUOTE=OldWardBus;248656]I'm sure you could find a commercial truck much easier than a bus over there! [/QUOTE]

Yeah the problem is (and one of the reasons of importing) is prices here are ridiculous. For example, a city bus with well over 700,000 to a million km or miles on the clock still goes for around £10-15k. Bus companies here just don’t have the same system as most states in the US where they retire skoolies around 100,000 miles or 10 years depending on state, etc. So buying a bus here is a much bigger risk by far.

In terms of trucks, that’s a great point, it is something I looked into after I mentioned my plans to someone and they were looking to do similar but with an old military truck. They just don’t offer the size that I need that I can get in a US skoolie at 40ft+ for the amount paid. US School buses really do offer superb value for money for a conversion project. It’s be cheaper for me to import 2, 3 or 4 skoolies and have spare parts (not that I have the space for, but in theory I mean) than it would to buy one truck or bus here, it’s crazy. Really appreciate the idea though, had someone else not mentioned it I could’ve potentially had a look into it for potential do appreciate your .02 pence mate.

I actually got to the idea of US bus conversion after originally thinking caravan (but difficulties parking and camp site fees are higher than property rent in some places) then thought motorbike/RV but even second hand ones in good condition that don’t look like their decor was rejected in the 70’s are expensive (US RVs are available here but leave no room for conversion inside once you’ve paid for it (I could fully convert a skoolie for what it’s cost me to buy an RV of similar size in 50/50 condition then I’d still need about 10-20k to convert the RV to what I’d want). Then I thought about container home conversion but need land, and even in England if not properly insulated, A/C, heated they’re a sweat box in summer and ice box in winter (we had one as a horse tack room so thankfully I had first hand experience of how unsuitable they can be in some climates). Looked at UK buses but see above, and eventually realised US buses offer the best alround value for money and potential. As I’m not using out for travel, and more for full time boon docking, maybe only moving it a handful of times a wheat at most, the shockingly bad mikes per gallon aren’t too much of an issue.

If I was travelling full time I’d defineiry consider another option perhaps or look at ways of improving the mpg because 7-9mpg is horrendous! haha I know it’s entirely different but my last two vehicles averaged around 55mpg, and I looked at selling one a few years ago and getting a hummer H2 just after they discontinued them and the price here dropped drastically, could get them for around 10,000 but even on the manufacturer spec they stated around 8-11mpg so I assumed real world of even worse - couldn’t believe it:... like how is it so awful?! fuel must still be super cheap over there I guess compared to here maybe? Oh that and insurance on a H2 here was the same per month as I pay per year on my other vehicle so I decided we’ll against it haha

Woah that was the longest reply ever. #essay sorry

[Twigg]

Fuel here is about 1/3rd or less, of UK prices.

So our equivalence is 30 mpg.

[TheBusHome]

Originally Posted by Twigg

Fuel here is about 1/3rd or less, of UK prices.

So our equivalence is 30 mpg.

Woah, that’s more like it. Maybe I should just move to the states haha

[TheBusHome]

Been looking at the Truma AquaGo Comfort or comfort plus. I'd filtered the options down between the Precision Temp RV550, the Girard GSWH-2. Then found the Truma AquaGo which apparently addresses any minor issue the others have and has solid reviews even against those other two.

Major problem though, spoke to Truma in the US and they flat out (politely) won't sell me one because they are not certified for the UK, only certified for the US, Canada and Australia (I'm in the UK and we have a very similar system to Australia in many sense incl electric, voltage, gas, etc so I don't know why they can't approve it but hey. They basically just haven't had it CE certificated for europe - Truma is a german company so.. yeah... Apparently the AquaGo is aimed purely at the US market for RV's to compete with precision temp, girard, atwood, etc so they simply haven't bothered getting them certificated for any other countries yet.

Now the thing is, its going into a bus conversion and although i'm very safety conscious, an engineer background, and I'll ensure the gas connections are done and tested and certificated by a professional gas engineer... i don't care about the CE certification, its just bureaucracy, the product is a quality product irrespective and there'd be no issues - i mean its going into an American bus and only connected to a propane tank purely for hot water and nothing else. You can only get the AquaGo through a Truma dealer though, also spoke to the Managing Director in the UK arm of Truma and again, they WANT to sell me one for the project (he said he'd ship one to me tomorrow if he could) but say they aren't ALLOWED to because no official CE marking. Blaaaaah... US Truma won't tell me a dealer to buy it from in the US obviously because they say they can't sell me one so when I asked about dealers they ignored obviously - they figured me out haha

Anyone know a Truma AquaGo dealer i can attempt to sweet talk... or any trustworthy skoolie convertors I can have receive one then forward on to me type deal (obviously at no cost to them)? I'm not a fan of Politics or bureaucracy. I just want a decent instant hot water heater and unless anyone knows how I can move to the US with 3 dogs and bypass the green card thing haha then I'm stuck with these options...

Help?....

[Chidori]

Can someone run by me what is a grey tank and how would I utilize it? It's for the drainage right? Is it a separate plumbing system from my main system? Is it reusable (I know not from toilet🤣🤣 using compost) if I put it through filter? Also could I do like 4 50gal tanks spaced evenly for weight or is that still to much weight for it to handle?

[TheBusHome]

Originally Posted by Chidori

Can someone run by me what is a grey tank and how would I utilize it? It's for the drainage right? Is it a separate plumbing system from my main system? Is it reusable (I know not from toilet🤣🤣 using compost) if I put it through filter? Also could I do like 4 50gal tanks spaced evenly for weight or is that still to much weight for it to handle?

This would be better asked as a separate thread to help others too but in a nutshell, yes it’s essentially waste drainage. Grey water is basically water used for stuff like laundry, dishes, showers, sinks. Basically waste water. It’s not drinking water.

To give you an example of how my system will be set up, it may help explain more for you:

I will have an incoming water source (so I’ll use a tap/faucet to fill a big tank of water). Connected to that tank will be an Aquasana whole house filter. So basically no matter where I am or what city water source I use I know my water will be filtered and drinkable. This will supply my sink, shower, bath, washing machine so it will be plumbed as any household system would.

The waste (so water from the shower with shampoo, fish water, water from the washing machine, will go down their respective plug hole or pipe out the back of the washing machine into a ‘grey water’ tank. Basically a waste tank. So that water will contain water, washing up liquid, shampoo, etc (this is one reason I use envinrkmentally and cruelty free friendly shampoos and cleaning products), hair, general dirt from hands, and everything you’d expect from washing.

If you aren’t using a composting toilet then easy peasy. If you are using a water based toilet then you’d have a separate ‘black’ water tank that is connected to the toilet only for waste because it will obviously contain faeces and urine. my system is comparing toilet (C-Head toilet) so I don’t need a black water tank or the mess associated with all that.

Is it reuseable? Technically you could reuse grey waste water but it depends what has gone into it, so if you’ve washed dishes or used bleaches or cleanin products (and bearing in mind from showers it’ll contain that too, it probably wouldn’t be suitable for anything even cleaning your car or driveway or whatever so I’d say depending on your circumstances, generally it’s probably not reusable. Even with all the environmentally friendly cleaning products I use I probably wouldn’t reuse mine.

In terms of weight, yes it is advisable to distribute the weight, ideally around the middle part of the bus if you have the space. If using 4 tanks as you suggest then just distribute them accordingly. On mine for example I have a source tank and a waste tank on each side of the bus so as one empties the other fills so the weight stays the same on each side it just shifts from one tank to the next (did that make sense?).

In a few weeks, now that I’ve managed to secure and buy a bus I’ll be doing YouTube and Instagram videos on the planning and design stages and will be explaining that with drawings etc so depending where you are in your stages keep an eye out for those (@TheBusHomeOfficial on insta or the bus home official on YouTube once the videos start but I’ll be advertising that on Instagram anyway).

Hope that helped a little.

[JDOnTheGo]

Originally Posted by Chidori

Can someone run by me what is a grey tank and how would I utilize it?

As near as I can determine, the concept of a grey water tank was hatched as this water (grey) could (at that time) be dumped out on the ground in some places. In other places, it went down a separate waste "hole" than sewage (black tank). Of course, that led to some confusion about what is grey. These days, my research indicates that grey water is basically shower and bathroom sink water only. NOT kitchen sink water (food particles). Regardless, there is nowhere in the states that I frequent that grey water can simply be dumped on the ground (and this is much debated). I don't mean to start that legal debate again - it is enough for me that I would never do that as there are many people that use an area besides me - simple courtesy, IMO). Certainly sewage cannot. So, I built one single tank into my coach as I cannot find a single reason for having two tanks. It all get's dumped down the same hole at dump sites.

Originally Posted by TheBusHome

black water tank or the mess associated with all that.

RV Holding Tanks vs Composting Toilet - JdFinley.com

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by JDOnTheGo

As near as I can determine, the concept of a grey water tank was hatched as this water (grey) could (at that time) be dumped out on the ground in some places. In other places, it went down a separate waste "hole" than sewage (black tank). Of course, that led to some confusion about what is grey. These days, my research indicates that grey water is basically shower and bathroom sink water only. NOT kitchen sink water (food particles). Regardless, there is nowhere in the states that I frequent that grey water can simply be dumped on the ground (and this is much debated). I don't mean to start that legal debate again - it is enough for me that I would never do that as there are many people that use an area besides me - simple courtesy, IMO). Certainly sewage cannot. So, I built one single tank into my coach as I cannot find a single reason for having two tanks. It all get's dumped down the same hole at dump sites.

The definition of "grey water" depends a bit on where you are. Shower, bath and washing machine water is "grey" everywhere.

Kitchen water is grey in most places, but "black" in others (the whole of Europe, for example), because of the meat content of food waste. If you are veggie or vegan, it's grey.

Urine is also "grey", even though it's yellow but not all jurisdictions would accept that.

Nowhere can you simply dump waste water on the ground. Even grey water is dirty and smelly. People will disagree with this, but best practise simply says that if you bring it in, you ship it out or dispose of it in a sanitary manner.