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Old 09-29-2010, 09:53 AM   #11
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Re: Water Recirculation System

Quote:
pipsqueek- Wouldn't the pump serve to pressurize water delivery?
Only if the system was closed, ie the feed goes from the tank directly to the faucet.
This system is an open loop to allow the water to be circulated through the disinfectant UV back to the tank bypassing the closed faucet.
This ensures the water in the tank is regularly disinfected, maybe on a timer.
If the restrictor was not present then the water would take the path of least resistance when the faucet was opened ie back into the tank or just dribble out of the faucet.
With the restrictor the path of least resistance is the faucet.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:12 PM   #12
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Re: Water Recirculation System

I wanted to share the advice on how to re-use gray water in the manner I want to, that I just got from a professional gray water recycling consultant. (There are a number of them actually.)

Remember I want to use recycled gray water only for showering, washing hands, laundry and dishes (not cooking and drinking.)

It could be best if I would use it only for showering and laundry and that still may be what I'll do.

First off I am not advocating doing this to anyone and if you do it, you do it at your own risk, (sadly that includes me).

One important tip he gave is that that UV protects water from various contaminants for only up to around 24 hours.

I will be using a hot tub or pool filtration system (all that urine, sweat, dead skin, dirt, bacteria, etc. needs to be filtered out of hot tubs and pools too,) and just after that a UV light of the correct intensity and off to the storage tank it goes. Later when the water is actually being used, IMMEDIATELY before it arrives on me physically, there is another UV unit that nails it. (Looping the water back through the previous mentioned UV unit is another way to go if you know how to do that economically.)

Frankly I think he got pretty excited about the concept as apparently he is the mature kind that never thought of such a crazy idea. He thought it could be built for around $2000 which I suspect didn't include labor. It's going to have to be a bunch cheaper for me though and I'll be looking for used pool/hot tub filtration equipment (not the filters of course) and I'll do my own labor. It unfortunately will mean more plumbing and at least one more water storage tank than normal.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:40 PM   #13
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Re: Water Recirculation System

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Then how could the pump could force water through a restrictor, but not a faucet?
The faucet closes off the line completely, The restrictor only obstructs flow to create pressure in the system.
A faucet is designed to close off a minimum of 80psi in a household cold water system, the restrictor only need to bring the pressure up to about 20psi.
You can use one of those water shutoff valves you have on the washing machine water line feeds as a restrictor and open or close it to get a good working pressure and flow in the faucet.
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:29 AM   #14
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Re: Water Recirculation System

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HUH?
I am not quite sure what you do not understand about how a faucet (tap) works.

The faucet (tap) you have on your sink in your kitchen switches the water on or off, or will also mix various quantities of warm and cold.

It is still basically an on/off switch.

The pressure in your household cold water system can be anywhere between 30 and 80 psi.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:23 AM   #15
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Re: Water Recirculation System

I now see where the confusion lies.
80 psi is not the minimum you will see in a domestic water supply it could be as low as 30psi.
The domestic faucet is designed to shut off a minimum of 80psi water pressure.
ie it will close off any water pressure below 80psi or in fact below a higher pressure depending on its design.

The pump will feed water to the faucet with the metering device in place because the metering device creates a back pressure and as soon as the faucet is opened then the water will flow.
If the metering device (restrictor) is not present then the back pressure does not exist,ie the loop feeds back into the tank unimpeded.
You may get some feed to the faucet when it gets opened but not much, especially if the faucet is at the high point in the system.
With the metering device (restrictor) you do not need a head of water to feed the faucet.
The idea of this system is not just to pump water to the faucet, it is also to pump water around the loop when the faucet is closed.

I am glad we sorted that out, didn't want us to think each other was a ninkumpoop!! (spelling?)

I have been trying to upload a jpeg of the system but I keep getting an error message when I upload.

Could not upload attachment to ./files/5110_c5104598aeb6f48a55e9185947ecf96d.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:11 PM   #16
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Re: Water Recirculation System

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How many water systems (unless it's a specific commercial use) run 80+ PSI on water pressure?
Check the design standard for your house in your area, you might be surprised.
Domestic mains supply can exceed 200psi and a restrictor need to be installed at entry into your house.
Typical UK pressures are 4-5 bar (60-75psi) for an urban supply. However, some people can get over 8 bars (135psi) or below one bar (15psi). (Wikipedia)

I would only envisage a pressure requirement of about 30psi to give a good supply in an RV system maybe more if you have a shower.
Pipe diameter used also affects the required pressure, small pipes need larger pressures to get higher flows.
If you know what the maximum flow required is then it is easy to calculate pipe sizes and pressures and therefore pump size.

Plastic faucets and valves etc if used would certainly not be capable of residential pressures.

Quote:
By designing a system that requires power 100% of the time, I'm guessing you plan on having shore power available 100% of the time?
Not at all, as I already stated it will be run on a 12 volt system and timer

Quote:
It would appear that the reason one would consider recycling gray water,
I am not advocating recycling grey water at all, this system ONLY circulates drinking water.
I do not know if recycling grey water is even legal.

Quote:
I also don't understand why you need to "gravity feed" a pump?
Its do do with what type of pump you use. Is it self priming or not. Even self priming pumps can suffer from "Cavitation" problems. Having gravity feed gets rid of all problems in this area.

I agree with you that if you have your water tank on the roof then head pressure may be the only requirement to get water flow
This design is to allow the tank to be installed inside the RV and allow delivery to points above the tank and also allow intermittent cycling of the water thru a disinfector.
It has been working very well for a few years now on a lot of high end private jets.
FYI aircraft do not recycle grey water they sometimes even eject it overboard before landing.
DO NOT drink the water from any faucet in any commercial aircraft.
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Old 03-01-2011, 12:30 PM   #17
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Re: Water Recirculation System

Hi guys... I'm new to Skoolie site.

The idea of recycling grey-water and the benefit it could be when boondocking has had me researching feverishly for nearly a month now. What I have come across seems to be a paradox.

On the side of filtering, though an RO (Reverse Osmosis) filter is best (.00005 micron) it is a huge waste of water. This leaves carbon filters (.05 micron) and based on info I have found, they are nearly as effective as RO except for nitrate and phosphate removal. Either filter system should be coupled with UV or Ozonation treatment in order to kill off bacteria. By all accounts of both lab tests and manufacturer claims this type of filtering produces 93-99.9% pure water.

However, every reference to reusing grey water for human consumption is met with "Don't Do It!" When trying to find out why/what is in grey water which is dangerous and that the above mentioned systems won't treat I cannot seem to find a single identified chemical, substance, bacteria etc. that is mentioned.

So the paradox is that a water treatment system, i.e. Sediment filter to Activated Carbon (5 micron) to Carbon Block (.05 micron) to UV treatment has a claim of 99% clean but then people in the water industry say treating grey water is complicated, time consuming, and non portable yet never state exactly why. It is starting to feel like when your parents would answer a question with "Because I said so."

Just to clarify, I do realize that successful treatment of grey water depends largely on what has gone into the water. Phosphate based detergents for example can quickly become a problem as well as water from high nitrate areas such as farms and nurseries when using a carbon filtering process. My hope is that someone knows what exactly it is which makes people so universally opposed to recycling grey water.
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:45 PM   #18
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Re: Water Recirculation System

People object to recycling grey water because it contains more than "soap" and water. When I was a kid living in FL, our washing machine dumped the waste water out into the yard. No harm to the grass except from the hot water (killed the grass in a very small area). That was just the washing machine.

A day of grey water in your holding tank....
You take a shower with your biodegradable soap and you wash skin cells, dirt, bacteria and, traces of body waste (e coli... do you have anything like... herpes? How about a yeast infection? Do you know for sure?).

After your shower, you brush your teeth and rinse your mouth out with water. The waste water goes down to your holding tank... consisting of bacteria and germs from your mouth. Do you have a cold? The flu? Something worse? Did you hear about the lady with the measles that managed to go thru 4 different airports? You wouldn't know until you got sick.

How about cooking your supper? Baked chicken sounds nice. Make sure you wash your hands before starting. You don't want to get sick from a nasty germ on your hands. Don't use that antibacterial soap... what it doesn't kill, mutates! Now the recipe says to rinse the chicken in cold water and pat dry... where did the water go? Oh that's right the chicken and any fluids from the chicken just went down the sink drain to the waste tank... along with (most likely) some salmonella bacteria.

Okay, now you are saying "but I'm not sick".... Here comes your guests.... And they use your facilities... of course they are washing the germs and bacteria down the sink into the waste tank.... how is their health?

Grey water is dangerous, there is no telling what all may be in it. That is why you don't see anything specific.

If you are planning on recycling grey water then do some research on it and read up. If you are "recycling" washing machine water to flush your toilet that's one thing. Just fill a tub and wash a good load of dishes. Now strain it out with a window screen into a bucket. Set it in the bathroom for a couple of days with a lid on it. Now take a whiff of the bucket. this is what you will be flushing with. Not drinking, but just flushing with. What you save on water you will spend on air freshener.

RV's use less water than most Stix-n-Brix homes and sometimes less than some of those "green" folks. If you want to save on water, the put low flow shower heads/faucet in your RV. An RV toilet uses very little water.



http://www.motherearthnews.com/searc...arch=Greywater
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:59 PM   #19
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Re: Water Recirculation System

I've also recently been researching this, and I'm finding similar frustrations.

Thank you Lorna for providing some concrete examples.

In my case, I'm considering the use of 2 tanks for bathing purposes. Tank 1 would start with fresh water, run through the shower into tank 2. Nothing else would be plumbed or to these tanks (other than fresh water fill, and dump of course). My thinking is to then run the used shower water through filtration and decontamination and back into Tank 1. Particulate filtering can get almost everything, and the U/V light can get most everything else.

However, this doesn't remove liquids other than water from the system. Nitrates and phosphates, and who knows what else, might be left. Those two in particular promote algae growth.

*if* we do go down this path (a big if), then we are considering changing shampoos and soaps to ones that have less nitrates and phosphates.

In this situation, we're only talking about reusing bathing water for bathing purposes. We don't plan to share our bathing facility. Sinks would go into different tanks.

If things go to hell in a hand-basket (ie, zombies have attacked, or some kind of apocalypse, or whatnot), I would consider taking filtered water from my grey tank and putting it into a berkey filter for drinking if nothing else were available.

Good luck in your research, and please post back with your results. I for one would love to find a cost effective and energy efficient method to reuse all that water.

jim
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Old 03-01-2011, 04:37 PM   #20
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Re: Water Recirculation System

On deeper reflection, Lorna has talked me out of this. I have plenty of tank space, I'll just make use of it.

jim
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