Back again...now with bus!

[cadillackid]

heres thr tough part... that oil could be running back from the turbo down into the manifold or being spun into the manifold.. im not sure if you still have the oil line connected to the turbo or not... or what the ramifications of starting an engine wit hthe turbo partially removed are.. someone may have to help here with that..

the curiosity would be if new oil ran out from the manifold or the turbo when the 2 are separated....

the sheer amount of oil involved sure sounds like turbo vs injector O-rings unless there is a cylinder miss and oil is being dumped into a cylinder..

if all 8 were running you wouldnt likely be blowing liquid oil out of the manifold..

-Christopher

[deftone]

I too agree that the turbo is where I would have thought the issue lay,

I did notice that one of my exhaust flanges is wet with oil....

[cadillackid]

are you talking exhaust flange where it goes into the head?..

I wish i hadnt just sent my bus away so i could look at mine... are the exhaust flanges below the turbo where there couldve been easy run-down after the engine got shut off?

-Christopher

[deftone]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

are you talking exhaust flange where it goes into the head?..

I wish i hadnt just sent my bus away so i could look at mine... are the exhaust flanges below the turbo where there couldve been easy run-down after the engine got shut off?

-Christopher

Yes, where the exhaust flange meets the head, and no, it is at the rear of the engine, the opposite side from the turbo

[deftone]

Ok, so Im now thinking it is coming from the engine, not turbo...

I ran the engine with the manifold-turbo slightly split and the prybar that I used to hold the flanges apart is covered in oil that was blown out of the line. Any oil from the turbo would have been sucked through not blown back down the manifold up pipe. So would the o-rings be the most likely culprit? Would anything else cause this?

The bus starts better than my 2015 F-150 so its super confusing!!

[deftone]

Would anyone here know the P/N so I can check if the local autozones etc carry the o-rings? I think I found the ones by searching as a F-250 diesel, but I would like to know for sure before I purchased.

*ANOTHER EDIT*

The local Advanced Auto has the parts in stock and confirmed that its for T444e, so we should be good there.

Any other advice on what to check prior to getting stuck into this injector o-ring change?

[cadillackid]

I was talking wit ha buddy that has a 7.3 and he says be 100% sure its not the turbo... unless you can totally separarte the turbo from the manifold and verify that the oil is in fact running out from the manifold side and that theres no way it is left over or sprayed from the turbo...

when you test ran it with the separation did you have smoke coming from your separation point like oil being burned in the cylinder?

the reason I like t osuspect the injector O-rings vs the valve guide seals is because of how much oil is being blown out at High speed..

the more you mash the accelerator of course the more the turbo spins.. but also the HPOP (high pressure oil pump) pressure goes up..

in these engines the injectors are actuated by the HPOP ,.. that pressure at idle is aroiund 550-600 PSI... when you mash it to the floor that pressure goes up to 1000+ PSI (oil pressure not fuel pressure).. and thats not the oil pressure you see on the dash gauge... it is a secondary pump....

so things add up to the fact you blow lots of oil when on it hard... im just amazed with so much oil that the cylinder still fires and hasnt been hydro-locked and damaged...

a turbo leak on the exhaust side can easily happen and not be on the intake side just yet...

lets play your scenerio though that they put a turbo on because they did the same thing you are doing.. and came to the conclusion there was so much oil i nthe exhaust it had to be the turbo.... when the issue is really something else...

what can fill a cylinder with oil??

1. valve guide seal on the exhaust side? it would have to be REALLY bad or a broken valve almost to get that much oil into the exhaust port or manifold that quick... normally those are a plume of smoke at startup then clean ...

2. Busted oil ring.. broken rings could allow alot of oil in the cylinder however if the oil riung is busted id assume the compression rings would as well.. and we would have a cylinder that doesnt fire.. but was belching oil out of its exhaust valve...

3. Injector O-ring. - oil gets by the O-ring and ends up in the cylinder.. normally a diesel engine is happy burning the oil not belching it out... then again if there is enough of it theoretically that cylionder might not fire and would belch oil.. seems unusual.. normally busted O-rings are accompanied by large plumes of blue (oil) smoke.. which you do have...


compression - not the easiest thing to test on this engine... disconnecting the computer fuses and trying to crank the starter.. listneing for an even cranking sound is a quick-and0dirty compression check.. any inconsistency in the crank sound indicates a cyklinder that has different compression than the others.. any attempt for one cylonder to feel like the engine is trying to "start" it would smoke from your gap and sound like the engine wanted to "catch" may very well mean oil is being pumped into the cylinder..and the cylinder is trying to run.. after all when the computer is disconnected the injectors wont inject any fuel...

im thinking outloud at this point..

-Christopher

[roach711]

Each fuel injector has three o-rings that separate diesel fuel from the high pressure engine oil that fires the injector. A leaky lower ring often shows up as oil residue in the fuel filter canister (fuel bowl) and often, but not always, white smoke at the tailpipe. A leaky upper o-ring shows up as oil coming out of the top of the injector and flowing back into the oil pan (no apparent oil use).

To check the fuel filter canister, screw off the top and pull the fuel filter. If there's no oil in the fuel then the injector O-rings are OK and I'd look at the turbo oil seals. The Ford Powerstroke version of your engine uses a Garrett turbo that's pretty easy to rebuild with common hand tools. I assume the International version uses the same one.

With that much smoke I'd think you should be seeing some oil use on the dipstick.

[cadillackid]

the IHC is a garrett also.. I believe the IHC is just a slightly bigger turbo than the powerstroke but the design is the same on both.
-Christopher

[deftone]

It is indeed a Garrett installed on this bus.

I've tucked her in for the night, the place was locking up for the day so I had to leave. I will check the fuel bowl tomorrow. Either way, I have the valve cover off now anyway.

One thing I noticed was that there was a mark on the valve cover where the one injector has been hitting the cover. This is the same cylinder that has the oil seepage around the exhaust/head flange. Could it be that the injector is not seated properly, allowing oil to pass the o-rings? Eyeballing it, it seems ok, but it caught my attention as there is no sign of that on any other injector.

[jazty]

Originally Posted by deftone

One thing I noticed was that there was a mark on the valve cover where the one injector has been hitting the cover. This is the same cylinder that has the oil seepage around the exhaust/head flange. Could it be that the injector is not seated properly, allowing oil to pass the o-rings? Eyeballing it, it seems ok, but it caught my attention as there is no sign of that on any other injector.

Hmmm. Yeah, if you have the valve cover off I'd check that the bolts that hold the injector down are properly torqued. If they aren't tight and the injector is pushed far enough out i could see lots of oil and diesel being mixed and possibly shoved into the cylinder. My guess is that the whole cylinder bank would be dead at that point, though, due to lack of oil pressure... Worth checking out though...

[cadillackid]

when you say injector hitting the valve cover, like a clean space i the cover where fuel was spraying on it ? Or a mark like a rocker arm broke and was tapping the valve cover?

You can start the engine with the valve cover off at idle for a short time and see if oil or fuel is soraying out when it shouldn't..

If you take an injector out be really careful about oil filling the cylinder .. there is a procedure to get it out otherwise you can bust a piston.. usually people hand rotate the engine over a couple times to clear the cylinder if oil.
I know somewhere I read about how to drain that oil rail before yanking an injector , I need to find that .
Christopher

[deftone]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

when you say injector hitting the valve cover, like a clean space i the cover where fuel was spraying on it ? Or a mark like a rocker arm broke and was tapping the valve cover?

You can start the engine with the valve cover off at idle for a short time and see if oil or fuel is soraying out when it shouldn't..

If you take an injector out be really careful about oil filling the cylinder .. there is a procedure to get it out otherwise you can bust a piston.. usually people hand rotate the engine over a couple times to clear the cylinder if oil.
I know somewhere I read about how to drain that oil rail before yanking an injector , I need to find that .
Christopher

There is a square-ish mark on the valve cover in the shape of the top of the injector. As if the injector was physically touching the valve cover. I can take a pic in the morning Incase I am jumping to conclusions, but I'm pretty sure that's what caused the mark.

If I started the engine without the valve cover, what would I expect to see? Or I should say, what should I be looking for that would help with the diagnosis?

I picked up an o-rings kit at advanced auto this evening. Was pretty reasonably priced at $16 per box (2 injectors per box)

[cadillackid]

wierd.. is it perhaps as simple as an injector that simply broke or partially bscked out because the retainer screw on the top corner failed??

[roach711]

Here are instructions for r&r of Ford Powerstroke injectors. Should be the same for yours.

How To: 7.3L Powerstroke Injector Removal and Installation


The following article outlines the general procedure for removing and replacing the fuel injectors in the 7.3L Powerstroke engine. All information is based on procedure advice and knowledge passed on by Ryan Bean of Bean’s Diesel Performance.


Tools needed:
– Inch-Pound Torque Wrench
– Small Pry-Bar
– Rubber Mallet
– Blue Shop Towels
– 13mm, 11mm, 10mm (deep), and 8mm sockets
– 24mm socket on a breaker bar
– Phillips Screw Driver
-Shop vac rigged with very small hose


* This process does not require the draining of any oil.


Remove plastic engine cover, air filter assembly, turbo intake hose, CCV assembly, Intercooler Tubes, and unplug main wiring harness (10mm bolt)
Start with the driver’s side. It is much easier to do because there is a lot more space So, begin by removing the driver’s side valve cover (13mm bolts).
Valve Cover Gasket Removal: Unplug the injectors by flipping down the metal clips and gently pull the plugs. Then unplug the Glow Plugs by gently pulling up on the wire plug. With everything unplugged, carefully remove the gasket being careful not to catch any wires on the injectors. This gasket will be reused unless you want to replace it. There is usually no need to replace to replace it.
Oil Spout Removal: You will be prying the injectors out so you will want to remove the oil spouts now. Using a 5mm allen wrench, remove the oil spout from each injector. You will reuse these with your new injectors, so don’t lose them.
Using an 8mm socket remove the lower injector retaining bolt from each injector. The upper bolt should not be removed, as the injector collar will simply slide off the upper bolt.
Start at the Back: Start with the rear most injector and work forward. This is important as the angle of the engine will allow for the majority of fuel and oil to drain into the rear cylinder. Using a small prybar apply pressure between the injector collar and the top of the head. It will take a push to get the injector moving. When the rear injector comes free, carefully remove it. At this point you should hear oil and fuel gurgling as it pours into the cylinder. Do your best to soak up the mess with blue shop towels (twist a couple blue shop towels together for this). With the shop towels in the injector hole, you can turn the engine over a few times by hand with a 24mm socket on the front crank bolt. I would suggest rigging up a shop vac with a very small hole to suck the oil and fuel out of the cylinder.
Remove the other Three. With the rear injector removed, you can now remove the three forward ones the same way. Also, since they’re all out, now is a good time to make sure all of the injector holes are clear of debris and that the copper washer came out with the injector. you will also want to visually check the brass injector cups and make sure they are still brass colored. Try to wipe the oil off of them the best you can. If the cups are soot covered they will need to be replaced. This has to be done with a thread tap.
Remove the Glow Plugs: With the injectors still out, remove all four glow plugs with a 10mm deep socket. Unless you have recently changed them now is a good time to. If you do so, be sure to only use Motorcraft ZD-11 glow plugs made by Beru. Using a 10mm deep socket, torque each glow plug to 168 in/lb. Plug them in.
Install Your New Injectors: Liberally coat the new injector (especially around the o-rings) with clean engine oil and carefully place it in the hole. BE CAREFUL NOT TO TERA THE O-RINGS. Once in the hole, give the top of the injector a few sharp blows with your hand to seat it. Then, get it the rest of the way into the hole with a rubber mallet. Don’t hit it crazy hard! Just give it a few hits until the collar slides over the upper retaining bolt. Repeat this process with the other three injectors.
Bolt Them Down: Insert the lower retaining bolt back into it’s hole and torque to 120 in/lb with an 8mm socket. Then replace the oil spouts, and tighten the 5mm allen bolt until snug.
Replace the VC Cover: Replace the valve cover gasket, and plug the injectors back in being sure to secure the metal clip. The glow plugs are still out so you can’t plug those in, and be sure to leave the valve cover harness unplugged. Replace the valve cover, holding it on with only a couple bolts.
Repeat Steps on the Passenger Side.
Replace Valve Covers: Reinstall the valve covers. Use a 13mm socket to torque each bolt to 96 in/lb. You will only need to put a few bolts in now. you will see why in a later step.
Plug the main engine wire harness back in and reinstall all of the plumbing, etc. that you removed in the first step.
Get Ready to Start: With the valve cover harnesses still unplugged, crank the engine via the key for 20-30 seconds to help build back oil pressure. If you would prefer to crank on the engine for only a few seconds, open the top of the HPOP reservoir and fill it with engine oil. It is also not a bad idea to cycle the key a few times to rebuild fuel pressure. Let the starter rest for 5 minutes after the long crank;
Start It Up: Plug the valve cover harnesses back in. Now you’re ready to go for it. Give it about a 15 second crank. It may start, and it may not. If not, let the starter rest a couple minutes and then try again. You can here the injectors start clicking right before the engine fires.
Work the Air Out: After getting your truck started,you should let it idle for a few minutes to make sure that everything is working normally. The truck may produce some white smoke at first and idle a bit rough. There is air in the system that needs to be worked out. The best way to do this is to drive the truck. The harder you drive it, the quicker the air issue will go away. You may also see some oil dripping out of you exhaust, and because this happens you should pay attention to where your exhaust is pointed because it will throw some oil. Remember that oil was blown through the exhaust valve in the cylinder when you started it. It shouldn’t be a lot if you got most of it with the shop vac.

[cadillackid]

im guessing a step in there is missing which is after you crank it enough with no compression (glow plugs out) to clear the oil out of the cylinders and get oil pumped back up to the HPOP that you would then pull the valve covers off, reinstall the glow plugs, (or put new ones in), connect the wires and then permanently install the valve covers.. then go to the start-it-up step?

-Christopher

[roach711]

Good catch Christopher.

[Carytowncat]

Wow this is an informative, intriguing , and exciting thread.


I am.excited to see you uncover the culprit, and from where i am sitting that motor sounds good, so i dont think the problem has done any serious damage... Especially if it ran well.

Good luck!

[deftone]

Originally Posted by Carytowncat

Wow this is an informative, intriguing , and exciting thread.


I am.excited to see you uncover the culprit, and from where i am sitting that motor sounds good, so i dont think the problem has done any serious damage... Especially if it ran well.

Good luck!

I wish it was exciting nearer my home town

If I cant get a quick fix I wont be able to keep it. I need to get back home for work.

[deftone]

Originally Posted by roach711

Here are instructions for r&r of Ford Powerstroke injectors. Should be the same for yours.

How To: 7.3L Powerstroke Injector Removal and Installation


The following article outlines the general procedure for removing and replacing the fuel injectors in the 7.3L Powerstroke engine. All information is based on procedure advice and knowledge passed on by Ryan Bean of Bean’s Diesel Performance.


Tools needed:
– Inch-Pound Torque Wrench
– Small Pry-Bar
– Rubber Mallet
– Blue Shop Towels
– 13mm, 11mm, 10mm (deep), and 8mm sockets
– 24mm socket on a breaker bar
– Phillips Screw Driver
-Shop vac rigged with very small hose


* This process does not require the draining of any oil.


Remove plastic engine cover, air filter assembly, turbo intake hose, CCV assembly, Intercooler Tubes, and unplug main wiring harness (10mm bolt)
Start with the driver’s side. It is much easier to do because there is a lot more space So, begin by removing the driver’s side valve cover (13mm bolts).
Valve Cover Gasket Removal: Unplug the injectors by flipping down the metal clips and gently pull the plugs. Then unplug the Glow Plugs by gently pulling up on the wire plug. With everything unplugged, carefully remove the gasket being careful not to catch any wires on the injectors. This gasket will be reused unless you want to replace it. There is usually no need to replace to replace it.
Oil Spout Removal: You will be prying the injectors out so you will want to remove the oil spouts now. Using a 5mm allen wrench, remove the oil spout from each injector. You will reuse these with your new injectors, so don’t lose them.
Using an 8mm socket remove the lower injector retaining bolt from each injector. The upper bolt should not be removed, as the injector collar will simply slide off the upper bolt.
Start at the Back: Start with the rear most injector and work forward. This is important as the angle of the engine will allow for the majority of fuel and oil to drain into the rear cylinder. Using a small prybar apply pressure between the injector collar and the top of the head. It will take a push to get the injector moving. When the rear injector comes free, carefully remove it. At this point you should hear oil and fuel gurgling as it pours into the cylinder. Do your best to soak up the mess with blue shop towels (twist a couple blue shop towels together for this). With the shop towels in the injector hole, you can turn the engine over a few times by hand with a 24mm socket on the front crank bolt. I would suggest rigging up a shop vac with a very small hole to suck the oil and fuel out of the cylinder.
Remove the other Three. With the rear injector removed, you can now remove the three forward ones the same way. Also, since they’re all out, now is a good time to make sure all of the injector holes are clear of debris and that the copper washer came out with the injector. you will also want to visually check the brass injector cups and make sure they are still brass colored. Try to wipe the oil off of them the best you can. If the cups are soot covered they will need to be replaced. This has to be done with a thread tap.
Remove the Glow Plugs: With the injectors still out, remove all four glow plugs with a 10mm deep socket. Unless you have recently changed them now is a good time to. If you do so, be sure to only use Motorcraft ZD-11 glow plugs made by Beru. Using a 10mm deep socket, torque each glow plug to 168 in/lb. Plug them in.
Install Your New Injectors: Liberally coat the new injector (especially around the o-rings) with clean engine oil and carefully place it in the hole. BE CAREFUL NOT TO TERA THE O-RINGS. Once in the hole, give the top of the injector a few sharp blows with your hand to seat it. Then, get it the rest of the way into the hole with a rubber mallet. Don’t hit it crazy hard! Just give it a few hits until the collar slides over the upper retaining bolt. Repeat this process with the other three injectors.
Bolt Them Down: Insert the lower retaining bolt back into it’s hole and torque to 120 in/lb with an 8mm socket. Then replace the oil spouts, and tighten the 5mm allen bolt until snug.
Replace the VC Cover: Replace the valve cover gasket, and plug the injectors back in being sure to secure the metal clip. The glow plugs are still out so you can’t plug those in, and be sure to leave the valve cover harness unplugged. Replace the valve cover, holding it on with only a couple bolts.
Repeat Steps on the Passenger Side.
Replace Valve Covers: Reinstall the valve covers. Use a 13mm socket to torque each bolt to 96 in/lb. You will only need to put a few bolts in now. you will see why in a later step.
Plug the main engine wire harness back in and reinstall all of the plumbing, etc. that you removed in the first step.
Get Ready to Start: With the valve cover harnesses still unplugged, crank the engine via the key for 20-30 seconds to help build back oil pressure. If you would prefer to crank on the engine for only a few seconds, open the top of the HPOP reservoir and fill it with engine oil. It is also not a bad idea to cycle the key a few times to rebuild fuel pressure. Let the starter rest for 5 minutes after the long crank;
Start It Up: Plug the valve cover harnesses back in. Now you’re ready to go for it. Give it about a 15 second crank. It may start, and it may not. If not, let the starter rest a couple minutes and then try again. You can here the injectors start clicking right before the engine fires.
Work the Air Out: After getting your truck started,you should let it idle for a few minutes to make sure that everything is working normally. The truck may produce some white smoke at first and idle a bit rough. There is air in the system that needs to be worked out. The best way to do this is to drive the truck. The harder you drive it, the quicker the air issue will go away. You may also see some oil dripping out of you exhaust, and because this happens you should pay attention to where your exhaust is pointed because it will throw some oil. Remember that oil was blown through the exhaust valve in the cylinder when you started it. It shouldn’t be a lot if you got most of it with the shop vac.

Nice write up of the procedure! Fingers crossed this helps get this baby on the road tomorrow!!