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Old 09-24-2019, 01:18 AM   #1
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Beginning on the Conversion Journey

Hello! A couple of my friends and I have decided to embark on the challenge of making a school bus into an RV. I'm a young bus mechanic and this makes me the most experienced member of our group and essentially project leader. We are based in Northern Virginia.

So far I've ruled the bus must have air conditioning with a preference towards OEM systems, largely due to having connections for parts and not having to do a whole lot of modification. We've decided we will not do heavy modification work to the structure of the bus. We may blank out some of the windows, but raising the roof is out of the question. We also intend to keep things fairly basic. At the moment plans are for basic amenities for 4 people. We're not trying to make something that feels like a high dollar RV, though we will make it look fair not sloppy and well secured.

As for the bus itself I found a salvage yard called M&M Salvage about 100 miles away that is offering 130+ buses for sale. I visited yesterday and was rather impressed. I was free to look at any bus as I pleased and most of them fired right up. Those that didn't, I merely had to ask for a jump. I ended up having about 8 jumped at once. Staff was polite and even offered dealer tags for road testing. They tell me they sell up to 5 buses a week, but it's a bit on the rare side.

To my surprise it turns out half the buses there are from my local school district. Of those, half are buses that had air conditioning so I largely focused on those. My work fleet has a lot of International Maxxforces and Freightliner Cummins so I went in more so looking for either an older International or a Cummins since I have access to that software and parts network. We are so far opting for a rear engine bus as they are longer. 45 buses had air conditioning and from there I reduced it down to about 20 candidates based on size and configuration. Eventually I worked it down to 10 buses that were DT466s or T444s, sadly no Cummins that matched what we want and I'm a bit reluctant to get a Cat 3126 or Mercedes, especially the Mercedes because I don't know where I can get parts for it.

In general these buses have tires with half tread or more. Most have one of the air conditioning units still working. Rust is minimal and most of the undercoating is still intact, which is much better than I expected for buses from my county that salts heavy. No hour meters, but I expect idle hours to be up there as most of them are were on dense suburban routes. Unfortunately my test driving indicated that most need front axle repairs, several were clunking really bad. M&M wants $4500 to $5000 a bus.

I would love to bring one home tomorrow but we still need to finish our research on how to get it registered and titled as an RV in Virginia. I need to head down to DMV to see what they need. I've already talked to a few people about insurance and they basically said we had to buy the bus first before they would consider a quote. I'm hoping we can get going before the dead of winter but it would be our luck we will have to wait till spring.

If anyone has any tips or advice, I'd love to hear it!
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Old 09-24-2019, 03:15 AM   #2
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Looks like you have quite a source for buses!


Could you post the address and phone for M&M salvage so others on the forum might be able to find a bus for themself?
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:04 AM   #3
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Certainly!

Welcome to M and M Service and Salvage Yard Inc.

229 M & M Road Ruckersville, VA 22968


Direct Link to the bus spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...CDY/edit#gid=0
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Old 09-27-2019, 02:09 AM   #4
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So been doing homework and asking lots of questions to DMV and finally I know the legal process for Virginia. Unfortunately everyone I talked to said it cannot be titled or registered preconverison with or without seats. I might try and do so anyway once we actually buy a bus but that part is still pretty distant.

Instead it must be titled as a reconstructed vehicle and to be considered a motor home it must include 4 of 6 systems that meet "National Fire Protection and Association standards for recreational vehicles." This appears to mean NFPA 1192. That was a mind numbing read. And wow is that book pricey. Yes you can view it online for free, but I feel a print copy is much more efficient to reference without bringing a laptop and internet connection with me.

The six systems defined by Virginia are word for word from the internal DMV policy (not something I was apparently supposed to have been handed out)
*A cooking facility with onboard fuel source
*A potable water supply system that includes at least a sink, a faucet, and a water tank with an exterior service supply connection
*A toilet with exterior evacuation
*A gas or electric refrigerator
*A heating or air conditioning system with an onboard power or fuel source separate from the vehicle engine
*A 110-125 volt electric power supply

Thankfully we are already planning for 110v power, a mini fridge, toilet and sink so we are covered on that front. Though the plumbing might have gotten a bit more complicated now because of the standards.

So when these systems are in place and complete, not necessarily the end of the build as described in the policy sheet, we will have to pay $125 for a state inspector to come out and examine everything. Then we can get a title and registration when they sign off.

Now for perhaps the biggest hurtle thus far, finding a place to do all of this. Lack of a title apparently means no trip permits so no driving after the purchase trip permit expires. No registration means it can't be left on a public street. And it also cannot be in a residential neighborhood in plain sight with or without plates as that's county law. I may have a lead on some good priced commercial storage property down a gravel road well out of the way of well, just about anyone but the quarry and couple of small businesses out in the woods.
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:14 AM   #5
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Wow that’s some good detail on the requirements.

With the exception of the gas part of the code the plumbing is going to be pretty easy. I can only guess that focus will be on industry standard materials and properly vented drains and tanks. What else are they going to look at?

You’ll also want to adhere to the NEC if they are inspecting. This will be a little more challenging if you have not been made familiar.

It brings the question, do you need a rough-in inspection for plumbing and electrical? Maybe good photo documentation can suffice. I’d ask whoever is the inspection authority.
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:58 AM   #6
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Wow that’s some good detail on the requirements.

With the exception of the gas part of the code the plumbing is going to be pretty easy. I can only guess that focus will be on industry standard materials and properly vented drains and tanks. What else are they going to look at?

You’ll also want to adhere to the NEC if they are inspecting. This will be a little more challenging if you have not been made familiar.

It brings the question, do you need a rough-in inspection for plumbing and electrical? Maybe good photo documentation can suffice. I’d ask whoever is the inspection authority.
The plumbing part of the code was making my head spin, I need to research a lot of what it's talking about in the code so I understand it better, but it does appear venting is a major concern.

Cooking isn't something we really want and after taking a glance through that part of the code I'm not too keen on gaseous cooking or hot water. I'll have to see what everyone else thinks tho.

National Electric Code? Yeah I need to look into that too. Just NFPA 70 or do I need to study another code as well? I might already be going a little overboard in my head already on how I want to configure the electrical system. I like rocker switches.

Hmm... specifics of what they will be looking at might be worth another phone call. The form and $125 fee is specifically for having an inspector come out to you. And it is apparently the only way to carry out this inspection.
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Old 09-27-2019, 04:32 AM   #7
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NEC Article 551 covers RVs. I read that itís adjunct to the rest of the codes in the NEC, for instance ampacity rating, box fill and the like from the rest of the code apply. I havenít read it yet, but Iím guessing the big points there are grounding and bonding variations unique to a metal chassis on rubber wheels and systems isolation related to the shore power interface.

Donít be afraid of the gas. If youíve flared and bent brake line youíre almost there. Most certainly key in that installation is choice of material. Reading through 1192 a couple of times should clear that up mostly.

And to set your mind at ease, if youíve ever had to deal with these systems in a factory motor home or mobile home, youíll see how slap dash they are and you will know your work will impress the inspector.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:52 AM   #8
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I'm down in Fredericksburg and just started looking into a build. I've perused M&M as well. Glad to hear that they seem easy to work with.

I'm looking forward to the updates, especially regarding titling in the state of VA.

Garrett.
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:17 PM   #9
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You won't need to buy a bus to get an insurance quote, but you will need a VIN# at the least so they know what would be insured. IINM, most states only require that you have 4 of the list of 6 requirements. Those rules vary also, as the toilet can be compost without exterior evacuation. You can register it by mail in Vt. and immediately have RV/MH regs without a conversion. Insurance won't be able to be secured until the conversion is complete.
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Old 09-27-2019, 03:27 PM   #10
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Nice to see some Virginians here. I am in Culpeper Va. You passed me on the way to Ruckersville. My project is smaller in size, but likely larger in scope. Shoving an entire RV's worth of tech into small Step Van is my pref. But feel free to ask about anything electronics. I know enough on the mechanical side to mess stuff up(accidentally of course). And am keeping the Plumbing bits as simple and minimal as possible. Hope to see you on the road sometime.
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Old 09-28-2019, 12:48 AM   #11
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You won't need to buy a bus to get an insurance quote, but you will need a VIN# at the least so they know what would be insured. IINM, most states only require that you have 4 of the list of 6 requirements. Those rules vary also, as the toilet can be compost without exterior evacuation.
Even when I gave them a VIN from a listing they had a hard time giving me a quote. They also wanted exact dimensions of the bus amongst other things.
Quote:
You can register it by mail in Vt. and immediately have RV/MH regs without a conversion.
I'm sorry, what? Even without any property or ever setting foot in Vermont? That would be awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defjr333 View Post
Nice to see some Virginians here. I am in Culpeper Va. You passed me on the way to Ruckersville. My project is smaller in size, but likely larger in scope. Shoving an entire RV's worth of tech into small Step Van is my pref. But feel free to ask about anything electronics. I know enough on the mechanical side to mess stuff up(accidentally of course). And am keeping the Plumbing bits as simple and minimal as possible. Hope to see you on the road sometime.
Lol I've passed by Culpepper a couple times in the past year. Bought an F-250 almost a year ago down in Orange. When we are ready to buy a bus perhaps we can pop in on our way back up.
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:42 PM   #12
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Vt. does not require residency to take your money. They get a standard $79 registration fee plus sales tax. Done through the mail easily. It's the easiest out for people having issues with registrations. Don't fall into the trap though of registering in Vt. as a MH and then not being able to obtain insurance because the conversion is not complete. I registered in Vt. only because my vanity tag was in use in my state.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:46 PM   #13
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Just returned from M&M again and found out they will hold a bus for 90 days for you on a $500 deposit. That's the good news, the bad news is that the buses (2005 International RE300s) we were looking at getting have frame rot under the doors. Like delaminating rot.

I've also been able to turn up a record from one of the auctions detailing reasons they were taken out of service that accounts for 20 or 30 buses there. Rust or engine problem is the most common ones though there's some that retired on "old age" on simple stuff like moldy seats.

So with our initial choices looking like duds we started poking around the Thomas HDXs with 3126s. We test drove one and once the excitement of test driving a school bus wore off we became concerned with the oil pressures we were seeing as well as the gearing. Out on the road the max oil pressure was about 40 psi. At idle the front gauge indicates 25 while the rear says it's less than 20. The RPMs were also practically pegged at 55 mph, so probably some really tall gears.... And perhaps some performance issues on the top end as it seemed to be struggling a little trying to maintain speed on a slight hill.

My digging suggests that 18 psi is the bare minimum for the engine to run. Also until the engine warmed up there was some blow by out of the draft tube, not a whole lot just like enough to notice it was doing it while inspecting the frame and underbody. Which btw is a little crusty but does not appear anywhere as severe as the RE300s and looks treatable with grinding and undercoating.

Unfortunately time did not permit us to look at all three HDXs of interest there, we looked primarily at the newest one, a 2003. We did glance at the other two and one has less miles and both have belt fan drives instead of hydraulic.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:02 PM   #14
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Just returned from M&M again and found out they will hold a bus for 90 days for you on a $500 deposit. That's the good news, the bad news is that the buses (2005 International RE300s) we were looking at getting have frame rot under the doors. Like delaminating rot.

I've also been able to turn up a record from one of the auctions detailing reasons they were taken out of service that accounts for 20 or 30 buses there. Rust or engine problem is the most common ones though there's some that retired on "old age" on simple stuff like moldy seats.

So with our initial choices looking like duds we started poking around the Thomas HDXs with 3126s. We test drove one and once the excitement of test driving a school bus wore off we became concerned with the oil pressures we were seeing as well as the gearing. Out on the road the max oil pressure was about 40 psi. At idle the front gauge indicates 25 while the rear says it's less than 20. The RPMs were also practically pegged at 55 mph, so probably some really tall gears.... And perhaps some performance issues on the top end as it seemed to be struggling a little trying to maintain speed on a slight hill.

My digging suggests that 18 psi is the bare minimum for the engine to run. Also until the engine warmed up there was some blow by out of the draft tube, not a whole lot just like enough to notice it was doing it while inspecting the frame and underbody. Which btw is a little crusty but does not appear anywhere as severe as the RE300s and looks treatable with grinding and undercoating.

Unfortunately time did not permit us to look at all three HDXs of interest there, we looked primarily at the newest one, a 2003. We did glance at the other two and one has less miles and both have belt fan drives instead of hydraulic.
20 lbs of oil pressure at idle is pretty normal. 40-50 at highway speed.
Belt drive would be preferable to hydraulic. At least in my opinion.

Take your time looking. It sucks dealing with rust or mechanical issues. Rust is the worst though.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:03 PM   #15
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Rule of thumb has always been at least 10psi for every 1000rpm you are running. I doubt you'll see 3k rpm. so 40 psi is safe.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:50 PM   #16
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20 lbs of oil pressure at idle is pretty normal. 40-50 at highway speed.
Belt drive would be preferable to hydraulic. At least in my opinion.

Take your time looking. It sucks dealing with rust or mechanical issues. Rust is the worst though.
Same opinion as my coworker. We just got a new Volvo coach for a few months lease to see if it's worth trading in 3 of our Prevosts for 4 of these Volvos. He was horrified to see the hydraulic fan drive and we were very surprised at several other things, like the battery arrangement of 4 relatively small AGMs around the drive axle seemingly divided in a starting and house arrangement. Died laughing at the nice emergency kit in a tool box made of painted plywood.

I will say that this one seems to be working pretty good, one of the salvage employees revved the engine up while we watching the rear pressure gauge and I got a face full of dirt sucked off the lot.

Yes and we're keeping in mind we do not have to buy a bus here at M&M as convenient as it would be. I've been keeping a close eye on auction sites as well.

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Rule of thumb has always been at least 10psi for every 1000rpm you are running. I doubt you'll see 3k rpm. so 40 psi is safe.
Ah this would explain why the guy seemed doubtful that it would make much more than that. I do have memories of my high school bus, also an HDX but with Mercedes ran 50 psi.
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Old 10-14-2019, 06:50 PM   #17
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My Cat 3126 is tight and has low hours. Its as clean and new an engine as I've had in a bus and its around 20 at idle once warmed up and around 45ish on the highway.
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:18 PM   #18
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Good to know, makes me feel better about picking one of these up. Can't wait to return to the yard to check out the other two then decide if we pick one up or continue to wait for auctions.
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Old 10-22-2019, 09:24 PM   #19
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So after another visit to the yard, M&M has become less friendly. They wouldn't jump anything for me today, at least until I'm ready to buy.

Our final contendors

#575, 2005 International RE300, DT466/MD3060, High Roof
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...t0VU16RHlGQXV3

This bus does have what I've found out is typical frame rot for this platform underneath the door. It's just underneath the door. Perhaps I can treat it and make it last for about 10 years as it's a rear pusher so the afflected area is not heavily loaded nor do we intend to do heavy structual mods to any bus we get. Records indicate this bus was removed for the frame, oil pan leaks, DF wheel well rust (which I have not readily found), and spring pins and bushings.





#24, 2004 International Am Tran, Standard Roof, Luggage Bays, T444E/MD3060
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...pMdEJVQXRIMzZn

This bus is virtually spotless, like almost like brand new clean underneath except it does also have some frame rot in the same place as #575. Except it is much less severe. I do not have records for this bus, but I can take an educated guess it was retired for its age and that it was now nonstandard for that fleet. That fleet now heavily runs Thomas C2s. This bus does not have an air seat, which is a bummer.


#422, 2001 Thomas HDX, High Roof, 3126E/MD3060
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...NjN3ByRUZOcHpB
As the oldest bus we are considering, it also has the most overall rust, but it is largely just limited to light scaling of the frame to where the undercoat is pealing. Though a lot of the engine fittings look uncomfortably ugly. It has new rear brake chambers, air drier, fuel tank, and the HEUI pump appears to have replaced in this engine's 177k life. Records say it was retired for a cracked exhaust manifold, air compressor, and leaking heater hoses. I have not yet found the crack and I have not yet heard this engine run. We like the dash layout of the HDX, and just the overall appearance.

I think the biggest deciding factor for us is how they run on the highway, we don't really want a bus that is on the red line at 55 mph like the other HDX we test drove.
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Old 10-22-2019, 09:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449 View Post
So after another visit to the yard, M&M has become less friendly. They wouldn't jump anything for me today, at least until I'm ready to buy.

Our final contendors

#575, 2005 International RE300, DT466/MD3060, High Roof
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...t0VU16RHlGQXV3

This bus does have what I've found out is typical frame rot for this platform underneath the door. It's just underneath the door. Perhaps I can treat it and make it last for about 10 years as it's a rear pusher so the afflected area is not heavily loaded nor do we intend to do heavy structual mods to any bus we get. Records indicate this bus was removed for the frame, oil pan leaks, DF wheel well rust (which I have not readily found), and spring pins and bushings.





#24, 2004 International Am Tran, Standard Roof, Luggage Bays, T444E/MD3060
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...pMdEJVQXRIMzZn

This bus is virtually spotless, like almost like brand new clean underneath except it does also have some frame rot in the same place as #575. Except it is much less severe. I do not have records for this bus, but I can take an educated guess it was retired for its age and that it was now nonstandard for that fleet. That fleet now heavily runs Thomas C2s. This bus does not have an air seat, which is a bummer.


#422, 2001 Thomas HDX, High Roof, 3126E/MD3060
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...NjN3ByRUZOcHpB
As the oldest bus we are considering, it also has the most overall rust, but it is largely just limited to light scaling of the frame to where the undercoat is pealing. Though a lot of the engine fittings look uncomfortably ugly. It has new rear brake chambers, air drier, fuel tank, and the HEUI pump appears to have replaced in this engine's 177k life. Records say it was retired for a cracked exhaust manifold, air compressor, and leaking heater hoses. I have not yet found the crack and I have not yet heard this engine run. We like the dash layout of the HDX, and just the overall appearance.

I think the biggest deciding factor for us is how they run on the highway, we don't really want a bus that is on the red line at 55 mph like the other HDX we test drove.
I'd avoid anything rusted like those pics show. If it was retired due to the frame chances are its a pile of scrap.
I wouldn't even consider a frame that rusted for a second.
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