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Old 07-22-2018, 08:55 PM   #1
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First post and looking at a bus! 2009 INTERNATIONAL CE300

Hi,


Been reading on this forum for a while. Lot's of info to absorb. We are looking to buy a shorty as a camper to explore our beautiful surroundings (British Columbia).


An alert popped up yesterday on an auction site for a bus that first our basic criteria. I'm probably going to make a really low offer because I really have not studied enough.


Link to the bus: https://www.rbauction.com/2009-INTER...ACK-BC-2018243


The engine is described as a "Maxxforce GTC210 7.6 L", that engine does not seem to exist. One of the images has the engine nameplate: "2008 MARXXFORCEDT GDT210, 466ci, 7.6L". That still does not provide me with a lot of info. But from what I see this seems to be an OK emissions controlled engine? Earlier ones were terrible. Did I get that right?


Second silly question: I'm guessing by the fact it has air suspension and the big yellow brake knob in one of the pictures, that is has air brakes?


Any all tips/hints on this make/model of bus are welcome!


Kind regards,
Bas

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Old 07-23-2018, 06:29 AM   #2
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RUN away from the Maxxforce.

I don't think there is even a single member here who would dare buy one of those except to maybe resell to the facebook lemmings.


The newer the diesel engine, the lower the quality and higher the complexity.

The local diesel shops have ALL told me that anything built after 03 or 04 is best avoided. The emissions stuff keeps them BUSY.

There's a reason there are such "great deals" on late model buses.
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:52 AM   #3
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That is the most unreliable engine EVER! Run away!
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:57 AM   #4
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while the MNaxxforce DT is based ion the DT-466E and has a better reputation than the Maccfroce 7.. i definitely would stay away fro mthe first couple years of those..



for one, this was one of the tifrst couple years of full-on EPA emissions, DPF filters and the like.. the manufacturers were rushed into this technology .. result being that it had a lot of bugs.. bugs that result in trips to the DEALER because some things could / can only be repaired by them.. Major emissions failures can result in destruction of the engine, or being stranded along side of the road because the computers shuts the bus down..



read the school bus fleet forums from back in those first few years 2008-2010 to see all the posts about emissions failures on Navistar Maxxforce engines and CAT ACERT engines..



once Navistar switched from the DT-466E (diamond Logic computers) to the Maxxforce system, the free software for turning on / off speed limiters, cruise control, etc would no longer work on these engines.. so if your bus has limits set , the software to remove them is pricey..



I myself am pretty adventurous when it comes to engines / electronics / mechanics and the like.(ill buy engines most here wont) and I myself am staying away from all MaxxForce engines...



the main allure of newer busses is less time to rust and often more creature comforts like Air-conditioning , air ride, etc... the reality is these busses exist from that 1998-2004 range which are pretty decent units.. and may have alot of these things if thats what you are going for..

-Christopher
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Old 07-23-2018, 08:02 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mullet View Post
That is the most unreliable engine EVER! Run away!

the MaxxForce DT isnt nearly as bad as the MaxxForce 7.. THATS the most unreliable engine ever.. eso the way schools ran them...



the reality is these 2 engines werent half bad as truck engines when used for long haul at full operating RPM and temperature.. but as school bus engines.. they often were never driven correctly for their design and thats where the issues come in..



our schools here in columbus have a bunch of Maxxforce DT;'s and some 7's and the biggest reason they end up at the dealer is the barn doesnt pre-warm them.. and with all the heaters on high in ohio winters they never are warmed up.. over and over all winter long these busses are driven that way...



if someone comes to me and says they are buying a Maxxforce DT box truck im likely to say go for it..



but a school bus? esp if said bus has low miles / high hours.. perfect sign that engine hasnt been run correctly..

-Christopher
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:40 AM   #6
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Thank you all!


I'm still a little unclear on what you are all telling me Must be the wind blowing in my ears from me running the other way.


Will keep my eyes open for something older


Back to reading the forums!


Bas
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:53 AM   #7
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Basically they added a bunch of crap starting in 2004 that caused diesel engines to stop being the most reliable and durable things around to now being very tempermental in ways that make them explode without warning. The Maxxforce series were the worst and most likely to melt, but every manufacturer had class action lawsuits against them for the same basic problems.
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Old 07-23-2018, 01:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brokedown View Post
Basically they added a bunch of crap starting in 2004 that caused diesel engines to stop being the most reliable and durable things around to now being very tempermental in ways that make them explode without warning. The Maxxforce series were the worst and most likely to melt, but every manufacturer had class action lawsuits against them for the same basic problems.
IMO this is the most crucial bit of info one needs to know when bus shopping.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:42 PM   #9
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Sneaking in one more question. The images show two buttons:


PARKD - REGEN
INHIBT - REGEN


Is that regeneration of the bits that deal with the emissions. Or is there something else (basic cat?) that needs regen?


TX
Bas
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:06 PM   #10
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It's a super fun manual process you get to do to clean out the diesel particulate filter.

Now, this is actually how it works. You'll love it.

So all the 2004+ changes were to reduce emissions. One of the things they added is the Particulate Filter, which filters out soot that would be Just Awful if it was burned and released into the atmosphere.

They can work pretty well and filter a lot of soot! Which is great because it would be Just Awful it it was released into the atmosphere.

However, they can only hold so much. So they have a "regen" process that cleans them up, so they can get back to their normal job of stopping soot from being released which would be Just Awful.

So the cleaning process is basically a computer controlled mode that runs the engine in a really inefficient way to purposely build up heat (some systems use electric coil heaters instead of just dumping fuel into the motor), which gets the particulate filter really hot, and causes all that filtered out soot to.... (wait for it)..... burn and release into the atmosphere.

And if you don't do it, your engine will probably grenade.
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:13 PM   #11
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If you run out of bull piss aka DEF you can also do a ton of damage. Or go into limp mode at the very least.
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:20 PM   #12
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@brokedown Awesome description! Thank you
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
If you run out of bull piss aka DEF you can also do a ton of damage. Or go into limp mode at the very least.
Fun fact, Google says there's about a million results for "can you pee in your def tank"

https://www.google.com/search?q=can+...+your+def+tank
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Old 07-25-2018, 02:41 PM   #14
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Fun fact: Somebody paid 10,000 CAD for that bus!
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:43 AM   #15
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Hi all,


Does the assessment of this engine change if I found one that only has 9000 hrs on it. From what I understand it's the specific combination of school bus and emission stuff that is bad.


This unit looks like a mining bus in near perfect shape with around 9000 hrs.



We would use it on long distance trips so it will run in the expected temp range


Bas
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brijn View Post
Hi all,


Does the assessment of this engine change if I found one that only has 9000 hrs on it. From what I understand it's the specific combination of school bus and emission stuff that is bad.


This unit looks like a mining bus in near perfect shape with around 9000 hrs.



We would use it on long distance trips so it will run in the expected temp range


Bas
9000 hours is quite a bit for a 2009. My 1999 only has 3400.
My 2004 with 226,000 has less than 9000.

There's a BIG reason there are more late model low mile buses for sale than ever before. Its because of the expense and down time.
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:16 PM   #17
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Hi,


Tx for that info, need to get a better feel for the hrs vs km balance


Bas
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Old 09-17-2018, 12:46 PM   #18
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extra high hours / low miles means that bus spent a lot of time either idling or in hard stop n go service.. if it is coming from a cold climate it very well may have spent s lot of time idling at below optimum temperature (hard on an engine)...



also remember dashboard miles are often not real miles.. esp if its an international - they were notorious for failed gauge clusters.. so clusters were swapped often or replaced with new / reman ones - odometers are not reset when a cluster is replaced... electronic engines save the mileage in the computer... the ECM compouters are generally reliable and are more accurate way of reading miles if you have access to a scan tool that can read the full memory dump/
-Christopher
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Old 09-07-2022, 03:43 PM   #19
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extra high hours / low miles means that bus spent a lot of time either idling or in hard stop n go service.. if it is coming from a cold climate it very well may have spent s lot of time idling at below optimum temperature (hard on an engine)...



also remember dashboard miles are often not real miles.. esp if its an international - they were notorious for failed gauge clusters.. so clusters were swapped often or replaced with new / reman ones - odometers are not reset when a cluster is replaced... electronic engines save the mileage in the computer... the ECM compouters are generally reliable and are more accurate way of reading miles if you have access to a scan tool that can read the full memory dump/
-Christopher
You are very correct on 90% of assesment. I had a Shitliner with a CAT7 engine ... and dash was showing 178k but ECM was around 330k, and upon reading I learned that it not only counts miles, but also engine revolutions. It jad the right miles on odometer, but the ECM miles included also the idling. Still ran fine was lazy AF.

Now onto my 2008 CE300 International ... has a 2006 DT466E engine in it. Way better workhorse alltogether. Miles on gauge and ECM were bang on at about 188k. The other problem I have with it is the temp sensor is 20 degrees over what hoses have ( 187 lower and 210 upper ), but the slightly higher temp is due to high RPMS because back is a 19060S 5:57.
Where does one find better gearing for rear diffs?
And what software I still get to use? J1708, or have to spring for the J1939.
I am using these busses as cutaway flatbed transporters, as per picture attached of the IC ( grey ) and the Freightliner ( black )
Attached Thumbnails
received_633874851432874.jpg   received_355702663214191.jpg  
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Old 09-07-2022, 10:53 PM   #20
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rear gears - differentials

I bought mine from a heavy truck salvage yard. Pay attention to the spline count of the axles... Mine had two different possible counts I had to confirm what axles I had so that I got a differential with the correct side gears.

I had choices of open or limited slip and two different axle spline counts.

some of the bigger rear ends you have open diffs, limited slip, and lockable.

In my case I had to pay attention to a "tone ring" -- in mine it is used for vehicle speed sensor -VSS and is also used for the rear axle anti lock braking.

When I started, I was told it was not possible to buy 3.73 rear gears with a tone ring-- this is a ford F450... I found the same axle in international terra stars with a tone ring, and the ratio I wanted....

To give you an idea in a 14,000 lb rated rear axle... I found 3.73 3.91 4.10 4.30 4.54 4.88 5.10 5.38 5.88

I went from 4.88 down to 3.73 but the transmission, change had a much lower 1st gear also.
I paid $800 for the diff inspected, pinion seal changed, 90 day warranty, and shipped from florida to kansas

william
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